Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

[Busaboy]

Language doesn't exist without analogy.

And quite possibly more.

cheers
ken

P.S. My welcome was fine.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Of course we should be nice to newcomers. And patient. Does everyone here know what they call newcomers on SBAF? Randos. SBAF labels new members as Randos. I had to look that one up in the Urban Dictionary. Here's what it says:

"an unpredictable, awkward and often creepy individual. a rando is always there in the background, even though no one invited him. Randos tend to be isolated within large groups; they sit in corners and lurk in the shadows of others. Even though everyone is aware of the presence of a rando, no one knows anything about him or her and therefore randos are often unwittingly ignored."

We certainly don't ever want to treat anyone who's taken their time to come here and learn how to make sense of the welter of contradictory information about audio like that. We're fortunate to have some very accomplished and brilliant people who are willing to share their knowledge about Audio Science, and we have some people who frankly don't know all that much yet. True newbies. And we also have some people who know a little something but are far from experts (myself included). Sometimes I think the most problems come from my group, who can sometimes think they know more than they really do, or believe the knowledge they have acquired conveys some special status when it point of fact it conveys little more than the obligation to share it unselfishly with anyone who needs assistance.

We should at all times remember that we're here to both learn and share our learning. And we should respect the fact that everyone here is at a different point on that journey and deserves to be treated with kindness and courtesy.

 

[threni]

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

How long do they have to be members here before we can grab the pitchforks and start hatin'? Asking for a friend...

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I'm relatively new here. I'm not an audio expert by any means. I know Ohm's Law and, if I look it up, can calculate basic stuff like impedance and reactance. I'm a history major who took some calculus. I've been interested in audio since the early '60s. Before I knew the term I tended toward the objective. It just made sense to me. I've never been able to understand most subjective descriptions of audio. I like stuff that can be defined precisely in the way that you can say a given color is a given frequency of light. I've participated in on line forums since the late '80s including BBSs, IRC, and USENET. I expect a certain amount of bad behavior. I'm relatively new here and have been pleased with most members' conduct. I haven't seen anything that exceeded my expectations on the negative side. I've seen stuff that meets my expectations but, I expected to see it. People sometimes get emotional when their opinions are challenged.

Because humans are involved there's always room for improvement. Humans are the source of most of our problems.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Unfortunately, it often happens that people ask very lazy questions. They just blurt out something, often not even a complete sentence. Or when people ask questions that have already been discussed dozens of times, quite often in the same thread. I can't stand it when people don't make an effort and just suck off other people´s attention and lifetime.
Such people in my opinion do not deserve too kind a response. Personally i often wonder how much work people invest in answering even extremely lazy questions.
My experience is, that if you put in a little effort and ask a reasonable question, you will get a reasonable answer here.

Statements/opinions "against the consensus" very much depend on how they are framed and written. People who have somehow rational arguments or mark statements as personal opinions deserve friendly responses IMHO, but not always getting those (including responses from @amirm sometimes). But often people don´t have good arguments or frame their opinions or experiences as (wrong) facts - they must receive very clear and sometimes harsh responses, i think. Bullshit needs to be fought.

 

[Travis]

Unfortunately, it often happens that people ask very lazy questions. They just blurt out something, often not even a complete sentence. Or when people ask questions that have already been discussed dozens of times, quite often in the same thread. I can't stand it when people don't make an effort and just suck off other people´s attention and lifetime.
Such people in my opinion do not deserve too kind a response. Personally i often wonder how much work people invest in answering even extremely lazy questions.
My experience is, that if you put in a little effort and ask a reasonable question, you will get a reasonable answer here

Well why not just ignore lazy questions? Or point out, politely, that it has been covered, dozens of times, in earlier posts?

Seems the least effort necessary is to either skip the question/thread, or say “I think your question has been answered, try a search of “ABx testing” or whatever it might be?

That was my take on what @amirm was asking, and I think he specifically mentioned that he has to ignore a lot of noise.

 

[voodooless]

Well why not just ignore lazy questions? Or point out, politely, that it has been covered, dozens of times, in earlier posts?

Seems the least effort necessary is to either skip the question/thread, or say “I think your question has been answered, try a search of “ABx testing” or whatever it might be?

That was my take on what @amirm was asking, and I think he specifically mentioned that he has to ignore a lot of noise.

When I was a mod on a totally different forum some ages ago, it was quite normal to close threads containing standard or common questions with the message to use the search of check out one of several threads about the issue. This keeps the forum clean and discussions centered. It is quite a heavy burden on the mods. It was picked by the senior forum members though, resulting in less work to do for the mods in the long run.

 

[kemmler3D]

The fact is that most audiophiles are not stupid or fools. They simply have not had the proper exposure to useful measurements and controlled listening tests.

it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

For me, this is it in a nutshell.

Whenever you encounter an "ignoramus" or "troll", keep this in mind:

We are up against an industry that profits from exploiting very simple but powerful facets of human nature: ignorance, expectation bias, and pride (in false knowledge, unnecessarily expensive gear, "listening experience", etc.).

This industry explicitly instructs newbies that objectivists are deaf, broke, cranky, closed-minded, single-mindedly obsessed with metrics of limited relevance, and ideologically motivated to the point of deluding themselves that "obvious" improvements to sound don't exist.

Of course none of these (except maybe crankiness) are true, some are even the opposite of the truth. But we can't expect people to switch their mindsets quickly, and we can't expect people to switch mindsets AT ALL unless they're treated with a fair amount of patience as the scales fall from their eyes.

I have said it before, but I think the forum would greatly benefit from a FAQ and more clear guidance for new users. At minimum, it could make sure that first posts asking about this or that change to the user's system includes all the relevant (and less irrelevant) information.

Here's what a FAQ could cover that would IMO clean up the forum experience:

• What's the best X in Y price range? (it would refer to reviews and the most common recommendations)
• Is there really no audible difference between difference between various XYZs? (refer to audibility thresholds, enumerate edge cases where differences can exist)
• What to include in posts asking for advice (room size/shape, treatment scenario, speaker setup, use case, budget, what's been tried already, etc)
• etc

Thanks @amirm for calling this out.

 

[Doodski]

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

By the same token, please dial down the complaining. Heaven knows every time I do a review, a good percentage is complaining about this and that. When a device performs extremely well, it is time to celebrate, not to think of half a dozen reasons why that is a bad thing. Dealing with all the negative commentary takes away some of the fun of reviewing such gear.

To be sure, you can correct people who try to prove science and engineering is wrong. Or issues you find in my testing or expressing a general opinion. Just be mindful of the negative consequences of it. I know I personally let go of many things that I don't agree with it.

I tell you these things because I see senior members wanting to have their account deleted at times due to the high tensions they see here on so many topics. Let's just be more relaxed about this. OK?

That's a big 10-4, OK from me. I sense the friction at times too and I'm not going to chat about it and will simply try to be more friendly and accommodating to newbies and peeps.

 

[kemmler3D]

Bullshit needs to be fought.

Agree. However, consider that honest and intelligent people often come across bullshit in their audio journey and mistake it for truth, through no fault of their own.

We should strive to fight the bullshit without attacking the bullshitter. If someone proves themselves to be a troll or whatever, have at it. Until then, IMO consider them more as a victim than a villain.

Anecdotally, even one of my good friends, a proud owner of Genelec monitors, and someone who used to work with me at an audio company, was shocked to hear me say there isn't any audible difference between most DACs. He'd been exposed to a certain amount of bullshit and maybe some had seeped in. It's a big mess we aim to clean up here at ASR.

 

[Travis]

Here's what a FAQ could cover that would IMO clean up the forum experience:

• What's the best X in Y price range? (it would refer to reviews and the most common recommendations)
• Is there really no audible difference between difference between various XYZs? (refer to audibility thresholds, enumerate edge cases where differences can exist)
• What to include in posts asking for advice (room size/shape, treatment scenario, speaker setup, use case, budget, what's been tried already, etc)
• etc

Like that idea a lot. Hope there isn’t blood on the streets

You might want to avoid using terms like “best” though. Too subjective. I will leave it to you experts to determine what is “acceptable” in any give catagory of product, and whether to include anything that hasn’t been measured/tested/reviewed.

 

[IAtaman]

I think a bit of getting to know each other would help everyone. New comers can get to acclimatize, we get to know them a bit better. So why not a new thread ban until you reach a certain number of posts like other forums do? (yes, I see other forums. I thought this was an open relationship?)

 

[Doodski]

I think a bit of getting to know each other would help everyone. New comers can get to acclimatize, we get to know them a bit better. So why not a new thread ban until you reach a certain number of posts like other forums do? (yes, I see other forums. I thought this was an open relationship?)

In my opinion that is a horrible idea. It stifles questions and assistance cannot be provided when some peeps need it most.

 

[IAtaman]

In my opinion that is a horrible idea. It stifles questions and assistance cannot be provided when some peeps need it most.

Does it? Almost all the questions new joiners ask are already answered in the forum somewhere, and can be found with a simple search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=best+closed+back+under+300+site:audiosciencereview.com.

https://www.google.com/search?q=amp+dac+recommendation+site:audiosciencereview.com.

Here, these two should cover, say, 50%?

And if the specific question someone wants to ask is not available as a thread, then they can always ask it under another thread. No stifling in my opinion.

 

[Doodski]

Does it? Almost all the questions new joiners ask are already answered in the forum somewhere, and can be found with a simple search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=best+closed+back+under+300+site:audiosciencereview.com.

https://www.google.com/search?q=amp+dac+recommendation+site:audiosciencereview.com.

Here, these two should cover, say, 50%?

And if the specific question someone wants to ask is not available as a thread, then they can always ask it under another thread. No stifling in my opinion.

It kills the open communication of a hobbyist and technical site. Part of the ASR mandate I think is to have fun if memory serves me correct. If ASR becomes a purist repository it will be veryyy boring.

 

[Travis]

I think a bit of getting to know each other would help everyone. New comers can get to acclimatize, we get to know them a bit better. So why not a new thread ban until you reach a certain number of posts like other forums do? (yes, I see other forums. I thought this was an open relationship?)

I'm not on a lot of audio forums,(about 5), and none of them, to my knowledge, requires a certain amount of posts to start a thread (except in a For Sale Section, they only want active "members" of the Forum to list, cuts down on fraud, dead beats, etc.). I would certainly be interested in forums that do have a new thread limitation. I have seen some manufacturer-sponsored forums that require approval of every post. I have seen some forums require approval of all first posts, whether a new thread or not, to try and keep a handle on spam (lots of Term Paper sellers seem to pop up for some reason).

Some forums have a system where you can "boost" a previous post in a thread, it promotes a good response and shows the number of "up votes" to a response. This seems to be a good feature. I have also seen forums where you can "downgrade" a reply, in essence, give it a negative review and it drops down in rank. This feature seems to be controversial and many have done away with that particular option.

Do you have any examples?

 

[Mnyb]

These rules do not apply to the inner circle. Troll-reply to my first posting here:

View attachment 292396

This joke is about what can happen with a software only especially PC based software only volume control
And yes English is not my first language so I'm also likely to misunderstand and also deliver badly formatted responses if I try to be funny.
There are also people with no sense of humour ( or wanting a very focused and tidy tread topic) so sometimes a funny response is not welcome even if it's understood.

 

[IAtaman]

Do you have any examples?

On Audio forums, head-fi only allows you to post new threads in the Help & Recommendation topic when you are a new member.

 

[antcollinet]

Unfortunately, it often happens that people ask very lazy questions. They just blurt out something, often not even a complete sentence. Or when people ask questions that have already been discussed dozens of times, quite often in the same thread. I can't stand it when people don't make an effort and just suck off other people´s attention and lifetime.
Such people in my opinion do not deserve too kind a response. Personally i often wonder how much work people invest in answering even extremely lazy questions.
My experience is, that if you put in a little effort and ask a reasonable question, you will get a reasonable answer here.

Statements/opinions "against the consensus" very much depend on how they are framed and written. People who have somehow rational arguments or mark statements as personal opinions deserve friendly responses IMHO, but not always getting those (including responses from @amirm sometimes). But often people don´t have good arguments or frame their opinions or experiences as (wrong) facts - they must receive very clear and sometimes harsh responses, i think. Bullshit needs to be fought.

Some fair points. But my response is simple. If your reply is going to be unfriendly, or unkind, simply don’t make it. There is no law that you must respond to every post.

I’ll freely admit that I have failed in this also.

 

[Keith_W]

I think a bit of getting to know each other would help everyone. New comers can get to acclimatize, we get to know them a bit better. So why not a new thread ban until you reach a certain number of posts like other forums do? (yes, I see other forums. I thought this was an open relationship?)

I do not support this. Part of our mission (besides having fun) is to win people over to our cause. We don't accomplish that by shutting them out. As Amir says, we should be nice. Gentle persuasion works.