Matt_Holland
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What a tear jerker. Even Eric is choked up
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Legal fund for Reviewers/Erin?
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Not sure if I understand you right, but yes you may be wrong.
A) You shouldn't really give the tonality score much weight, but ideally learn how to read the actual data.
B) Are you saying you don't trust a manufacturer provided measurement? That is fair I suppose, as it could theoretically be falsified. Would be a pretty risk move from a manufacturer to do so though.
From Eric's video:
I'm gone give you some advice because you are making things worse the way you are continuing to handle it, not for you, but for the livelihood of the people that are working at your company and may be affected by your actions. Call Paul from PS Audio immediately and write down word by word what you have to do to save the day, he got some bad reviews around here for their products (not their speakers) but at least he was a gentleman about it compared to you. Go for the art side of your speakers, how measurements don't tell the whole story, how real audiophiles listen with their heart and not with measurements, Paul will know what to do. Just drop all legal threats and let it all be forgotten.
And get Dr. Toole book and give it a good reading. Call some of your loyal customers and perform a blind test between one of your speakers and some cost equivalent speaker from manufacturers that get recommended around here. Learn and adjust, as a businesses owner you should know that.
Really man you need to adjust to the new reality. Gone is the time when you would write together the reviews with the traditional audio media. I'm sorry too to tell you, but that's how things are right now.
I'm gone give you some advice because you are making things worse the way you are continuing to handle it, not for you, but for the livelihood of the people that are working at your company and may be affected by your actions. Call Paul from PS Audio immediately and write down word by word what you have to do to save the day, he got some bad reviews around here for their products (not their speakers) but at least he was a gentleman about it compared to you. Go for the art side of your speakers, how measurements don't tell the whole story, how real audiophiles listen with their heart and not with measurements, Paul will know what to do. Just drop all legal threats and let it all be forgotten.
And get Dr. Toole book and give it a good reading. Call some of your loyal customers and perform a blind test between one of your speakers and some cost equivalent speaker from manufacturers that get recommended around here. Learn and adjust, as a businesses owner you should know that.
KSTR
Major Contributor
I'd bet we'll just see some loss of level at very low frequencies near final roll-off, a few dB at most. Almost no impact on the overall picture, in the end.
I dont think we will see much. But why gues if we can see.
Emlin
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I expect we'll see Eric open his mouth and put his four rubber feet in it again.
Nice!
fastleo63
Member
The fact that the acoustic tuning of a loudspeaker cabinet must rely on the sealing of a set of rubber feet leaves me somewhat perplexed regarding the design criteria of the speaker itself.
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Pearljam5000
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Doubtful. Bose was very successful at litigation for very similar issues
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Looks like a goldmine opportunity for a public relations consultant? The facts are concerning but the perception is catastrophic.
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Not every good engineer is also good in puplic relations.
We have no lawsuit… no need for a legal fund… and a guy who digged a pretty big hole at Tekton Design.
In support of the Tekton Design employees, I bought a Tee-Shirt:
It’s $20 and can be found in the “Accessories” section at Tekton website.
I‘d like to think that the (modest) profits could be used to improve the measurement capabilities at Tekton.
I swear I won’t review it, but it will fit me well: I’m no golfing panther (not great!), yet, I think I can be enjoyable… postman panther (not terrible).
In support of the Tekton Design employees, I bought a Tee-Shirt:
It’s $20 and can be found in the “Accessories” section at Tekton website.
I‘d like to think that the (modest) profits could be used to improve the measurement capabilities at Tekton.
I swear I won’t review it, but it will fit me well: I’m no golfing panther (not great!), yet, I think I can be enjoyable… postman panther (not terrible).
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It’s been my experience most engineers are terrible at the empathetic skills needed for good public relations. The public can seldom absorb the fact an engineer is trained to question beliefs and opinions. Beliefs and opinions are inherently very valuable to the general public as that makes up the world they live in. The act of questioning their beliefs alone will trigger irrational emotions and engineers simply can’t handle such subjectivity…
Perception problems are better handled by professionals…
Not bad i have a nice evtl. helpfull url.
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teachingmama.org
Yeah.
The new reality for manufacturers should be this:
- Manufacturers should conduct and publish their own measurements. Instead of harassing reviewers because their measurements are "wrong" you should have your own reference measurements.
- Accept that the interwebs are a big part of product research these days. Concerned about negative reviews showing up in Google search results? Well maybe you should have a better internet presence of your own.
- Work with reviewers. Reach out to them before they review your products, don't scramble to do damage control after the fact. Provide review copies when feasible, or at the very least, please let them know that you are ready to assist and collaborate while 100% respecting their independence.
The correlation between better measurements and better listening experience is real but there is a lot of complexity there and it is a FAR from linear 1:1 correlation.
Of course you see this in a lot of different pursuits. ex: If you just look at "gigahertz" then CPUs haven't gotten any faster in the last 25 years, but the reality is that performance is well over an order of magnitude greater. Yet you have a bunch of minimally knowledgeable dorks who known what clock speed is and therefore think they know enough to meaningfully compare CPUs.
It wasn’t even a bad review. I wonder what the policy is?
mwmkravchenko
Active Member
You do not need to be right. You need to cost a defendant enough money that they give up fighting.
I keep reading stuff like this and it bugs me.It’s been my experience most engineers are terrible at the empathetic skills needed for good public relations. The public can seldom absorb the fact an engineer is trained to question beliefs and opinions. Beliefs and opinions are inherently very valuable to the general public as that makes up the world they live in. The act of questioning their beliefs alone will trigger irrational emotions and engineers simply can’t handle such subjectivity…
Perception problems are better handled by professionals…
Good engineers are good engineers precisely because they are empathetic, if by that one adopts the definition of feeling what others feel. Being able to crawl inside the user's perspective in understanding use cases and user needs has been a specifically identified mandatory skill going back at least to Bill Hewlett and the HP Way.
What they may or may not be is sympathetic, or able to express the emotions of pity or sorrow at the plight of the suffering. Engineers aren't trained to the notion of questioning beliefs, etc.,--I never heard anything like that in pursuing my two engineering degrees. We were trained to correctly identify the problem and find a design solution that would be safe, efficient, and cost-effective. Most of the questions on tests in engineering school start with the word "given...," followed by the problem definition, and not with specific training in communicating with users to understand the nature of problem in the first place. And most engineers are trained in methodologies to a much greater extent than in the principles of physics and theory on which those methodologies supposedly draw. Good engineers usually must transcend typical engineering training to have a real grasp of underlying theory and to be able to explain themselves to non-engineers.
Engineers who cannot adopt the user's perspective may attract the stereotype precisely because they are held in low esteem by users (and, for that matter, by good engineers). If they are brilliant designers, they may be quite useful, but probably not in the user/customer-facing role, at least early in the process.
Back to this issue. As I have said before, there's nothing really wrong with a person with good ears designing speakers simply to sound good to them, and then marketing them to anyone who will buy them. The problem is in making false claims about them. If they use words that imply measurement, people will (eventually) demand to see those measurements, or they will take it upon themselves to provide their own. If the claim is "we tune these speakers to provide the spectral response that sounds good to us, and we think they will sound good to you also," then there is no claim of measurement begging for refutation.
But also as I have said, even low-cost speakers of good reputation going back half a century (and more) were designed using definable tools and measured in laboratory conditions of one sort or another. They may not perform today in the way Dr. Toole came to recommend, but they made a lot of music that brought a lot of people into the fold of those who enjoy good-sounding playback equipment in their homes.
Of course, the response by the designers of such speakers should be to change the conditions of the test rather than to challenge the tools of measurement within the conditions.
(Also of course, public relations isn't about empathy or challenging dominant paradigms or TRVTH or anything like that. It's about taking what you do and presenting it as the best way to do it in such a way as to expand the market pool rather than contract it.)
For example, a one-off maker who tunes by ear might write the following ad copy: "Our speakers may not be for everyone. And that's fine, because we lovingly handcraft them one pair at a time with our devoted but small staff of eight. But those who have been impressed count themselves among the leading experts in the audio community. Please don't be swayed by measurements from reviewers who are trying to force our special speakers into some generic mold. Listen for yourselves. We think you'll be impressed, too."
That really doesn't take much creativity and there's nothing about that statement that is untruthful, no matter how much folks here (including me, up to a point) might disagree with it.
I don't think what we are seeing is specifically any sort of engineer disease.
Rick "has enjoyed speakers who measured worse than these" Denney
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