• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Latest Stereophile article about reviewing

IPunchCholla

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2022
Messages
1,102
Likes
1,384
Welcome to the world of social networking via the internet.
The first four words are sufficient. I existed before the internet, it was much the same then, just slower transmission.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,201
Likes
11,817
I would like to note that this apologia for overpriced, underperforming, wannabe bespoke "High-End" gear precedes a review by the same scribe, gushing praise for a gratuitously spendy audiodisc player that doesn't have the decency to have a UPS digital in, which would probably set them back in less than $10 of materials, if they knew what they were doing. JA's measurements tell the real story, a bit of a botch job on multiple levels.


Yeah, and look at the measurements. Doesn't exactly look SOTA.

As I wrote in a comment under that review "someone at Benchmark is smiling." :)
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,079
Location
Nashville
My read of that quote is that the placebo effect of high cost, newness, etc. wears off, leaving the reviewer with the real sound. He then needs another hit of the placebo with something new to think it is exciting again.
Actually, I think that the new component provides a new hit of dopamine, and after it wears off, another purchase is needed for that next hit. It's not the "perceived improvement" so much as the excitement of bringing something novel into the environment that keeps these kinds of "equipophiles" going.
 
Last edited:

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,079
Location
Nashville
We need to lay off these guys. They are entirely conscious of what they are doing. Peak cynicism. They are selling wares and if they don't push a bit more on the marketing/propaganda, the sector that sustains them will disappear ( not that it won't .. regardless).
Let's look quietly at the High Fidelity landscape for a few mins:
DAC are commodities,: My favorite exemple is the Apple dongle at $9.00 being virtually undistinguishable, even superior to a $15,000 DAC "audiophile DAC
Commodity-level availability of ultra-high-performance (power, THD, IM, effciiency, etc) Class D amplifer modules. Now it is no longer an issue to design a high performance amp.. Rather of knowing how to properly assemble, readily available modules in readily available cases... For marketing, you may need to address S'Phile and its competition.. :D.
Transducers could have been an area of specialization.. alas, there again , routinely , $300 monitors do challenge High End audiophile darlings... and the buzz is on: people seem to know about it. And the assault is not only from the usual or pro shops , it's coming from ... gasp... :eek: .eek.. the Lifestyle sector, I have heard so many Sonos-based system that would wipe the floor with many expensive audiophile shrines.. Seriously asking the question: For those who have heard the famous LS 3/5A.. Would a pair of these so-beloved speakers, in the same well treated room, sound better than a pair of Sonos 5? .. damn even a Sonos ARC Soundbar?

....

To conclude. Which systems is, in your opinions, likely to sound better:

This:

audiophile-setup.jpg



or

that...
190823_dutch-and-dutch.2.jpg

?

Peace.
The D&D's will sound better, but a system build around Magico A3's and a boatload of McIntosh electronics won't exactly sound terrible either. Just not as good, and more expensive, and obviously with more clutter. But some hobbyists will get off on that. They're gonna prefer all those glowing front panels and big towers. Their money, their preferences, their choice. So be it.
 

steve59

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
1,018
Likes
727
Jim Austin's 'thoughts on reviewing' reads like an olive branch extended to the scientific community or baybe some of the less committed members on this forum. The seething hostility on this site towards anything 'hi end' is confusing to me in its origin and just seems like another dumping ground for people to hang around and spread hate. Hate is in vogue in america today and everything is fair game. hifi is harmless enough that if hate burned itself out this would be as good a place as any, unfortunately, after the hate burns thru this site it will just find another to destroy.

I don't care how much anybody spends to get enjoyment in their life, ask yourself why do you? Some lessons cost more than others but they're still lessons learned and if you think hifi is bad just look at the markup of anything.
 

IPunchCholla

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2022
Messages
1,102
Likes
1,384
Jim Austin's 'thoughts on reviewing' reads like an olive branch extended to the scientific community or baybe some of the less committed members on this forum. The seething hostility on this site towards anything 'hi end' is confusing to me in its origin and just seems like another dumping ground for people to hang around and spread hate. Hate is in vogue in america today and everything is fair game. hifi is harmless enough that if hate burned itself out this would be as good a place as any, unfortunately, after the hate burns thru this site it will just find another to destroy.

I don't care how much anybody spends to get enjoyment in their life, ask yourself why do you? Some lessons cost more than others but they're still lessons learned and if you think hifi is bad just look at the markup of anything.
You seem to be mistaking informed criticism for hostility. When measurements reveal that someone is spreading misinformation, pointing that out is essential in a reasonable society. It is not hate. When I am shown to be incorrect, I am not being attacked, I am being provided the opportunity to understand and to perform better, which ultimately leads to a more satisfying experience.
 

steve59

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
1,018
Likes
727
You seem to be mistaking informed criticism for hostility. When measurements reveal that someone is spreading misinformation, pointing that out is essential in a reasonable society. It is not hate. When I am shown to be incorrect, I am not being attacked, I am being provided the opportunity to understand and to perform better, which ultimately leads to a more satisfying experience.
Nothing to disagree with there. I think hifi has been my carrot at the end of the stick, doesn't matter what it tastes like cause i'm never going to eat it anyhow, it only has to make me want to put on my boots and go to work. so help me out here?
 

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,239
Location
Manchester UK
Jim Austin's 'thoughts on reviewing' reads like an olive branch extended to the scientific community or baybe some of the less committed members on this forum. The seething hostility on this site towards anything 'hi end' is confusing to me in its origin and just seems like another dumping ground for people to hang around and spread hate. Hate is in vogue in america today and everything is fair game. hifi is harmless enough that if hate burned itself out this would be as good a place as any, unfortunately, after the hate burns thru this site it will just find another to destroy.

I don't care how much anybody spends to get enjoyment in their life, ask yourself why do you? Some lessons cost more than others but they're still lessons learned and if you think hifi is bad just look at the markup of anything.
Pointing out the facts and challenging those who insist on repeating manifestly incorrect notions is not 'spreading hate'. There's something else that's very much in vogue in America today: absurd theories and blatant untruths, and these will continue to fester unless challenged at every opportunity. If someone wants to spend $46k on a CD player, then that's fine, I'm sure it looks very pretty sitting on their shelf. But if they want to pretend that this purchase has granted them a musical experience beyond that accessible to others then they should expect to find their claims shot down.

What Jim's doing is nothing new, countless pundits have tried similar contortions in the past, and got nowhere. They will continue to fail as long as they refuse to accept that 'high-end' audio is a luxury marketplace whose desiderata extend far beyond simple function. No-one pretends that a Rolex keeps better time than a Casio, but the market for luxury watches continues to do quite well for itself without having to dabble in superstition.

'You're just a hater' is nothing more than a smokescreen used by those who have run out of arguments.
 

steve59

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
1,018
Likes
727
You made a very valid point. Are we going to start a wristwatch site next to complain how much fancy wrist watches cost? You're right there with me except you see a difference between watches and components encased in 1/2" aluminum boxes. There's many posts regarding the necessity for dbt to test the validity of audible differences, but buyers of these products may want them on display because otherwise it's just another squak box from china. Maybe I'm suggesting someone successful enough to buy a product like this would know why they're buying it. I'm out for now, ttyl
 

TurtlePaul

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
631
Likes
1,027
Location
New York
Are we going to start a wristwatch site next to complain how much fancy wrist watches cost?
Mechanical watch makers will not make claims that their watches are more accurate than quartz. The buyers know the timekeeping is less accurate but that is not why they purchase a Rolex. In the audio world, the R2R DAC makers and interconnect cable makers make claims or audible improvement when it is just not so, that is the difference from wristwatches. High end speakers and components are beautiful furniture, but the claims of sonic improvement when manufacturers cannot admit that you are buying furniture that is audibly indifferent or has flaws need to be scrutinized.
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,337
Likes
7,737
You made a very valid point. Are we going to start a wristwatch site next to complain how much fancy wrist watches cost? You're right there with me except you see a difference between watches and components encased in 1/2" aluminum boxes. There's many posts regarding the necessity for dbt to test the validity of audible differences, but buyers of these products may want them on display because otherwise it's just another squak box from china. Maybe I'm suggesting someone successful enough to buy a product like this would know why they're buying it. I'm out for now, ttyl
I often see that comparison but you know that those watch people and websites will NEVER claim the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Tourbillon Ceramic Black, at a cool $485,000.oo,, to be more accurate than a $99.oo Casio G-shock.. Never... We tend to see the opposite on those High End Audio fora:
While the Topping D-90 is good for its price.. we know it won't be as good as the CH-Precision DS-1 at $46,000...
is common fare. Looking at the Frequency Response of the $46,000 contraption, we notice, and it was measured by JA, that is is down 10 dB at 17 KHz ... that's poor performance and likely to be audible by some. Meanwhile the Topping remains flat like the Earth :p (according to Kyrie Irving) from 0 to 20 khz...has better THD, IMD, SINAD, Signal to Noise Ratio, linearity... it surpasses the CH-precision in every measurable way. It begs the question: why does the CH-Precision DS-1, cost so much, if it doesn't sound any better than a $11.oo Apple dongle and actually may sound worse for the few people who can hear past 14 KHz... ???
High End Audio and its shills, have played and fooled (and continue to do so) many, for too long. Count me among those who have been fooled and thrown money at things, because as told by the gurus, they cost more thus would be better: My saying (grammatically incorrect.. I know ):) Moh Money= Moh Better. It is time for the pushback. It is time to let people who actually love music, know, learn that good sound , accurate reproduction of music, does enhance the appreciation and enjoyment of music. And most importantly: no longer have to cost a lot. So Yeah, when they write such nonsense, they have to know there are knowledgeable people that will pushback,and hard, with provable facts...

Peace.
 
Last edited:

IPunchCholla

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2022
Messages
1,102
Likes
1,384
You made a very valid point. Are we going to start a wristwatch site next to complain how much fancy wrist watches cost? You're right there with me except you see a difference between watches and components encased in 1/2" aluminum boxes. There's many posts regarding the necessity for dbt to test the validity of audible differences, but buyers of these products may want them on display because otherwise it's just another squak box from china. Maybe I'm suggesting someone successful enough to buy a product like this would know why they're buying it. I'm out for now, ttyl
Buying audio components as jewelry, furniture, examples of excellent ID is totally legitimate. If someone purchases one of those $35k cables because they love how beautiful it is, fine. If they claim it changes (purportedly for the better) audio signals without presenting data, not so much. The first claim (beauty) is a matter of opinion, the second is a claim of fact and MUST be supported to not be a falsehood.
 

jsrtheta

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
936
Likes
991
Location
Colorado
Buying audio components as jewelry, furniture, examples of excellent ID is totally legitimate. If someone purchases one of those $35k cables because they love how beautiful it is, fine. If they claim it changes (purportedly for the better) audio signals without presenting data, not so much. The first claim (beauty) is a matter of opinion, the second is a claim of fact and MUST be supported to not be a falsehood.
Third option: They buy an outrageously expensive component, or even one that is markedly beyond their budget, because they have been convinced by narcissists that it is the only route to true audio nirvana.

Audio upgrading can be a form of compulsive behavior, something that few will acknowledge. I don't care if a billionaire spends an astronomical sum to would-be billionaires who are simply deluded or greedy. I do care about the guy who spends money he really can't afford for something he has been duped into believing will perform miracles. It can become compulsive bordering on obsessive, a perpetual search for The One True Component.

I no longer have patience for liars, not even the deluded ones.
 

Mart68

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 22, 2021
Messages
2,609
Likes
4,861
Location
England
There are two hobbies and they sort of cross over,

There's using hi-fi equipment to listen to music, and using music to listen to hi-fi equipment.

The second hobby is the one that is created and perpetuated by the industry, from the 1980s onwards this was perpetuated by the magazines, and those of us that came up in that era, that's the mindset that was created in us.

Okay we all change a component occasionally (for me usually due to something dying) and we have to assess the replacement. So there is some crossover. It's when that becomes the whole thing the original purpose gets lost.

I don't find much of interest to read on other forums these days, I slowly came to the realisation that it's because most of the people frequenting them are not into the same hobby as me. I don't have any interest in how the new amp from such and such 'sounds', or what the new whizz-bang speaker cable from so-and-so does for the midrange.

Not judging people, what they do in their free time and what they spend their money on is their own business. And I think the vast majority of people who are pursuing that hobby have a good handle on what they are doing and what they can afford, they're not idiots. It just holds no interest for me.

When Steve 59 says that we're destroying the hobby he loves I think that is the hobby he is talking about. Hence the 'disconnect'.

Not that we are destroying it of course, it will always exist along with the forty grand components and the crazy foo products. He doesn't have anything to worry about really.
 
Last edited:

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,051
Likes
12,150
Location
London
Completely agree there is the ‘sound quality’ element and the ‘more money than sense’ element.
Keith
 
F

freemansteve

Guest
I'm happy to review anything for the price of a decent lunch and a promised advertising spend.... :) :)

Does anyone pay attention to magazines these days, online or print?
 

ADU

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 29, 2021
Messages
1,587
Likes
1,086
An article by Jim Austin about reviewing. While I understand the inference that hifi is all about enjoying music, I can't quite follow the logic from (talking abut measurements) "But what you learn from such research reveals little of interest about any individual in the group" to the subjective conclusion that "a belief that what's true for the critic will be true for others". What happened to individual preference in that leap?

This article reminded me of an Ariana Grande song....

 
Top Bottom