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Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors

Newman

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Are there measurements of its SINAD? That was part of my question.
 

Roland68

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I really doubt that buying a receiver with RCA pre-outs and something to convert the single to XLR could compare on price/performance. You probably lose quality in the conversion, and you certain lose money. Lots of < $500 receivers have pre-outs if you don't care about XLR and HDMI. I don't know what to use to covert, but I'd bet is at least $500.
Then check the service manual before buying a 4K (or more) expensive AVR. With many, the SE signals are only converted to balanced directly before the XLR outputs.
 

dlaloum

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You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.
 

Roland68

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Are there measurements of its SINAD? That was part of my question.
SINAD is only meaningful for the entire device.
With the DRV134, you don't have to worry about that. Look at the data sheet and compare the performance with eg NE5532, which is commonly used for this application in expensive AVRs.
 

Newman

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Like you say, I would rather see SINAD for the entire devices (AVR pre-out and balanced converter/gain module) than comparing the chips used as per your suggestion.
 

dlaloum

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Then check the service manual before buying a 4K (or more) expensive AVR. With many, the SE signals are only converted to balanced directly before the XLR outputs.
I have yet to see service manuals for the current generation of Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer or Denon/Marantz.

Often these do not become readily accessible until the components have been in the market a number of years.

If you know where to get service manuals for any of these, pray tell!!!
 

Roland68

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Like you say, I would rather see SINAD for the entire devices (AVR pre-out and balanced converter/gain module) than comparing the chips used as per your suggestion.
If they had spent 5 seconds they would have found this link:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ina)drv134-rca-to-xlr-adaptor-converter.9948/

In this box, someone connected a DIY power supply to a DIY DRV134 module.
I built a smaller circuit board with 2 x DRV134 (stereo) in a small aluminum box (approx. 80 x 50 x 20 mm), on one side with approx. 5cm RCA cable and on the other side with the longer XLR cable, like this no additional plug connections are necessary. All boxes are powered by a Mean Well +/- 12V power supply with the SMPS filter from the DIY forum. Cost of all parts for 6 channels (without cable) approx. 100 - 120 €/$.
 

Roland68

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I have yet to see service manuals for the current generation of Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer or Denon/Marantz.

Often these do not become readily accessible until the components have been in the market a number of years.

If you know where to get service manuals for any of these, pray tell!!!
I have access to the schematics through friends of mine, but you can buy most current service manuals online for around $10-$30.

With most devices, the volume control takes place on the analog side (after the digital area) and only then the signal is balanced (directly before the output).
But it's been 2 years since I bought an AVR and I can't tell if newer units are consistently balanced or if the volume control is on the digital side.
But it is perfectly normal that the balanced signals are unbalanced after the input and are rebalanced after the volume control, before the amplifier stage. This is the case even with many devices costing several thousand dollars.
There are only a few devices that are completely and consistently balanced, which is both complex and more expensive, and that for every channel.
 

peng

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I have access to the schematics through friends of mine, but you can buy most current service manuals online for around $10-$30.

With most devices, the volume control takes place on the analog side (after the digital area) and only then the signal is balanced (directly before the output).
But it's been 2 years since I bought an AVR and I can't tell if newer units are consistently balanced or if the volume control is on the digital side.
But it is perfectly normal that the balanced signals are unbalanced after the input and are rebalanced after the volume control, before the amplifier stage. This is the case even with many devices costing several thousand dollars.
There are only a few devices that are completely and consistently balanced, which is both complex and more expensive, and that for every channel.

If you can buy service manuals for the 2019 through 2022 or just 2021 please share a link. I searched hard and the latest ones I could find for the D+M's are no newer than, for example, AVR-X3600H and SR6014 (bought it, those were 2019 models iirc). Couldn't find any for Anthem's.

There are always some that are downloadable for free but again, anything newer than 2018/19 would be tough to find so I tend to agree with dlaloum on this in general.
 

Roland68

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If you can buy service manuals for the 2019 through 2022 or just 2021 please share a link. I searched hard and the latest ones I could find for the D+M's are no newer than, for example, AVR-X3600H and SR6014 (bought it, those were 2019 models iirc). Couldn't find any for Anthem's.

There are always some that are downloadable for free but again, anything newer than 2018/19 would be tough to find so I tend to agree with dlaloum on this in general.
Unfortunately, I can't give you any other advice than using Google or searching within the relevant portals.
Just as an example for Marantz AV8805A Service Manual:
https://www.service-manual.net/?download=68267-marantz-av8805-service-manual

With smaller companies and top models, it may be that the service manuals are only given to certified workshops or the devices are only repaired internally.
 

bcrawfo2

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You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.
Thanks for this post. I've been struggling with replacing my 2010 preamp/processor happily providing 5.1 via external amps and great speakers, but stuck in 1080p land. I've worked around this feeding all my video into a 4k TV and doing ARC from TV to preamp, but have reliability issues. I'm more budget constrained than I was in the past, so the idea of a receiver really opens up things.
 

dlaloum

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Thanks for this post. I've been struggling with replacing my 2010 preamp/processor happily providing 5.1 via external amps and great speakers, but stuck in 1080p land. I've worked around this feeding all my video into a 4k TV and doing ARC from TV to preamp, but have reliability issues. I'm more budget constrained than I was in the past, so the idea of a receiver really opens up things.
My previous flagship AVR, had the same pre circuit boards as the prepro (Integra DTR 70.4) - but without the Balanced outputs - I compared it to my current far far cheaper AVR (Integra DRX 3.4) - which is less than half the price of the earlier one - and in preamp terms, performance is identical... (based on my personal subjective tests)
The addition of Dirac (within the new AVR) has lifted overall system performance to a new level... which I am very happy with.

The downside, is that the new AVR has "weak" power amp section, which does not handle my rather difficult speakers well, but with external amps plugged in, performance has been exemplary.
 

TSB

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If you Google the insides of the Arcam AV40 and Anthem AVM70, you'll see a "stunning similarity" in the circuit boards used.
On the Anthem AVM70, areas of the power supply are not populated with components.
Under certain circumstances, the additional effort in the Arcam AV40 in the power supply has a positive effect on the sound.
Maybe I misunderstood: are you implying the Arcam AV40 and the Anthem AVM70 are shared designs?

(I'm quite confident that's not the case.)

It looks from the pictures like they are using the same HDMI board though.
 

JimA84

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I use - and like - my $900 IOTAVX AVX1 7.1 4K "Home Theater AV Processor" with room correction (image #3 below), although I only use it for my 3.0 system (L-C-R, no subwoofer).

My preference for music is still 2.0 stereo, but for movies with multichannel audio, a proper center channel anchors the dialog, by doubling woofer area, it increases bass response, and adds a "fullness" of volume in my very tiny room. I have no intention of replacing the IOTAVX, but the company appears to be a very small marketing company in the U.K. that contracts the assembly out to Chinese manufacturing, and has no presence elsewhere. The design is an update to an older Nakamichi AV Pre/Pro, and I have no idea who designed it. Comments abound the internet suggest that support is o.k. at times, but not always there when you might need it. So with IOTAVX in the U.K., and me in Panama, my expectations for service and support are minimal.

I watch the market out of curiosity. Audio has been a life-long hobby for me, and video in the past 20 years or so. I have looked at possible replacements in case the IOTAVX dies some day. Although I haven't been a McIntosh fan-boi since the 1970's, their current MX100 is my dream A/V pre-pro, although it has more channels (11.2) than I would need. At $5,000USD, it is far too expensive for me, but I like that it skips the legacy video I/O and other connections for which I would have no use. (And of course, the $17,000 Trinnov Altitude 16 appears to be the best of the best, but it is far too expensive for most of us.)

Unfortunately, the mid-range brand-name market segment apparently has no "basic" A/V Pre/Pro products available - I can find no equivalent to the IOTAVX anywhere. The only true budget A/V processors I came up with are generic units. Amir and others recommend good-measuring A/V receivers like the Denon AVR-X3700H with all-channel pre-outs, but they are big monsters with many, many connections on the back, and start at about $1,200-1,500.

In line with my interest in a budget replacement should the need arise, I would like to hear comments from anyone who has tried the inexpensive generic A/V processors like the first two below.

1. Generic $63 unit from Amazon:
View attachment 168397

2. "Daok" unit from Amazon - $180
View attachment 168400


3. IOTAVX AVX1 from IOTAVX direct - $950 (The only one I could find with just the features I need, including balanced XLR outputs.)
View attachment 168402



4. Denon AVR-3700H from Amazon - $1,500
View attachment 168403

5. McIntosh MX100 - $5,000
View attachment 168404

6. Trinnov Altitude 16 - $17,000
View attachment 168405

I have the same lament, in addition to the disappearance of XLR on even high cost units.

I suspect this is the influence of MBA ideology. Cost cutting and wealth extraction. Oh, those pre-out connectors might add a few cents, better delete them.

I wonder if anyone has tried anything as hinky as taking something like an Onkyo TX-NR6100 and simply connecting DI boxes to the F, C and Surround speaker outputs and plugging in 5 Adam Audio T5V active monitors using XLR and connecting an Adam T10S via XLR with a Rolls MB15b ProMatch active converter.

I was thinking of something like the Rockville RDI5 passive DI box set to 40 dB attenuation.

I don't know how this would affect the characteristics of the amplifiers looking at a wimpy impedance matching transformer instead of a speaker. Of course it would be possible to use a dummy load resistor in parallel but this would be even more hinky, trying to fool the amplifier into thinking it's looking at a speaker when its just being ignored.

I simply don't have $5,000 or so to spend on a high end Pre-Pro unit with XLR, if one still exists.

I used to have a stereo HT made out of a very moderate cost 19 inch rackmount professional preamplifier with XLR and a couple Samson Rubicon 5a ribbon monitors and it sounded very good even without a sub.

The total cost of the audio was about $500 or so.

I like ribbons and I need XLR.

In many places I have lived, a RCA cable over 18 inches would turn your system into a hum infested AM radio receiver.

Even with video quality coax for the RCA cables.

XLR should have replaced RCA decades ago for everything. The more RF interference we create the more we need it.
 
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I can attest to that.
When I got my Genelecs, I also felt i'd be missing out on something if I don't have fully XLR / balanced connections.
Now i'm running simple RCA -> XLR adapters after the Pre-Outs of my amp and use long XLR cables to connect the speakers.
If I should feel the urge to "upgrade" something for my peace of mind, I may start a small DIY project and build a box with these converters here

Though I don't see the reason for that (anymore) :)
 

JimA84

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Why make it so hard on yourself with DI boxes? Just get an AVR with pre-outs and RCA to XLR cables. Works well.
As I said, the AVRs I can afford don't feature pre-outs. The ones that do typically cost many thousands of dollars.

And I still need XLR due to noise reduction. Like many urban dwellers I live in a RFI furnace. RCA cables are just antennas.

What you need to know is that the whole point of XLR is that instead of a single conductor in a shield, it is two conductors that carry equal and opposite signals.

So unlike RCA where you rely solely on the shield to block interference, with XLR any interference is absorbed equally by the plus and minus signal wires.

Since XLR is a differential interface, the signal voltage is a difference between the two primary conductors inside the shield.

Interference is absorbed equally by both lines. Since it is the difference between the two that constitutes the signal, noise only alters the absolute signal floor but it doesn't change the difference. Thus it is rejected by the input because it automatically cancels itself out.

This makes XLR vastly superior in high RF noise environments because it effectively doubles the interference rejection of a single conductor shield like RCA.

Also you can't convert RCA to XLR with cables. You need an active converter like the Rolls MB15b ProMatch. It's not simply a matter of swapping wires.

There is really no acceptable passive solution to going from RCA to XLR.

It's really complex and involves impedance matching and other issues that simply cannot be done with an adapter cable.

A RCA to XLR cable is like trying to plug a 115 volt household appliance into a 220 volt outlet by simply changing the plug.
 

pseudoid

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Why make it so hard on yourself with DI boxes? Just get an AVR with pre-outs and RCA to XLR cables. Works well.
Great suggestion about the complexities of DI boxes; but...
Wouldn't this be like buying a whole large pizza and throwing just half (-6dB) of it away because you think pizza is not the ideal daily dietary supplement?
 
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