Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors

[dlaloum]

I don't buy products anymore with the assumption that they perform better than advertised.

Quad 606 - highly regarded vintage amp (current dumping) 1983 - 1993, replaced by the almost identical 707 & 909
THD = 0.03% = SINAD -70.46db
Signal/Noise = 105db

It's a great sounding amp - current version of the desing is the Quad Artera Stereo

THD = 0.03% 20-20kHz @ 100W (0.003% 1kHz 100W) = SINAD -70.46db
Signal/Noise = 115db (140W A weighted)

I would not call it a state of the art design - but I would call it an excellent audiophile / high fidelity amplifier

SINAD is not everything - the devil is in the detail.

A SINAD of over 60db is OK, as long as the signal/noise is over 100db - if these two criteria are met, then there are heaps of other parameters of amplifier performance that should be considered more important.

 

[abdo123]

Quad 606 - highly regarded vintage amp (current dumping) 1983 - 1993, replaced by the almost identical 707 & 909
THD = 0.03% = SINAD -70.46db
Signal/Noise = 105db

It's a great sounding amp - current version of the desing is the Quad Artera Stereo

THD = 0.03% 20-20kHz @ 100W (0.003% 1kHz 100W) = SINAD -70.46db
Signal/Noise = 115db (140W A weighted)

I would not call it a state of the art design - but I would call it an excellent audiophile / high fidelity amplifier

SINAD is not everything - the devil is in the detail.

A SINAD of over 60db is OK, as long as the signal/noise is over 100db - if these two criteria are met, then there are heaps of other parameters of amplifier performance that should be considered more important.

I'm not going to assume that the noise is better than the distortion performance, you seem to be missing this point.

If they advertise that noise performance is X dB then i'm going to take that in consideration, otherwise if they provide only the SINAD value then i'm going to use the SINAD value since this is the value that is available to me.

 

[voodooless]

I'm not going to assume that the noise is better than the distortion performance, you seem to be missing this point.

If they advertise that noise performance is X dB then i'm going to take that in consideration, otherwise if they provide only the SINAD value then i'm going to use the SINAD value since this is the value that is available to me.

Or you just hold judgement until we actually have the figures. But yes, > 100 dB SNR is a must have. Are you also going to assume a 120 SINAD if only 120 dB SNR is speced?

 

[abdo123]

Are you also going to assume a 120 SINAD if only 120 dB SNR is speced?

No because that's not how it works?

 

[peng]

I had 95 dB SINAD and the hiss was really insane even on bookshelves.

95 dB SINAD measured on the test bench may not reflect the noise level your speakers received. Was it possible that the hiss/noise was from cabling (types, long runs, layout/routing)? Or it could be your bookshelf speakers (as well as your hearing) have very high sensitivity to the hiss frequency spectrum.

 

[abdo123]

95 dB SINAD measured on the test bench may not reflect the noise level your speakers received. Was it possible that the hiss/noise was from cabling (types, long runs, layout/routing)? Or it could be your bookshelf speakers (as well as your hearing) have very high sensitivity to the hiss frequency spectrum.

The issue was fixed when i changed the device for one with 117 dB SNR so I doubt there was something special about it.

 

[dlaloum]

The issue was fixed when i changed the device for one with 117 dB SNR so I doubt there was something special about it.

When discussing gain optimisation, you need to match the gain between the components, if you mismatch it, then your EFFECTIVE signal/noise will be reduced... potentially massively so - a gain mismatch can easily tke 60db off your S/N - dropping you from 95db to 35db - and causing hiss as a result.

In a pro recording environment, there is a lot of focus on gain matching for that very reason.

If you suffered from this type of problem - changing components might well resolve the issue - and the issue may well have been resolved, coincidentally, by the new component having gain that is better matched to the rest of the chain (ie: not directly related to the SINAD !) - or it might have had the same gain and the same gain matching issue, but the additional 22db of S/N raised it past the threshold of audibility - and gave you the EFFECTIVE S/N that you were seeking.

Yes S/N (that is what you are talking about here, and not SINAD) - has an impact.... but it seldom (not never) is the cause of hiss ... hiss in 90%+ of cases is caused by other mismatch issues - mainly gain. (typically too much gain in the wrong places!)

 

[DoesNotExist]

Ups, v1. didn't know there are two versions.

CANTON Smart Connect 5.1

| Canton Smart Connect 5.1 Vorverstärker (schwarz)

hidden-audio.de

V2 650 eur in the same shop
Seems the difference is v2 works with apple airplay

499 € in Germany

https://www.hifi-profis-da.de/shop/alle_produkte/canton-smart-connect-5-1/

Mine is arriving in next days. I paid something more for delivery expenses to Italy (10 €) and increased Vat compared with Germany One (12 €)

I also bought the optional remote controller (35 €)

 

[pseudoid]

Is that the Generation 2 device, or the older one? I'm not even sure what the difference is though.

It's weird; this Canton.
An online US retailer calls it the:

Interesting little rig but I don't see anything wireless about it.
Where is the

??

 

[voodooless]

It's weird; this Canton.
An online US retailer calls it the:
View attachment 246365
Interesting little rig but I don't see anything wireless about it.
Where is the
View attachment 246366??

It can do full 7.1 wireless to at least the brands wireless speakers.

You don’t have one of those antennas on your laptop either, yet it can do WiFi just fine.

 

[pseudoid]

It can do full 7.1 wireless to at least the brands wireless speakers.
You don’t have one of those antennas on your laptop either, yet it can do WiFi just fine.

I guess a definition of an antenna (of any type) needs not be defined... besides shape but also whether internal or external.
Their website gives no clues besides stating that it has got WiFi (both bands)... and/or bluetooth.
I asked (re: 'antenna'), because I was trying to determine if those wireless links will/can provide the stated audio specifications; which appeared to be for the "wired" thru-puts.
It would also help someone seeking information to know how wide of a coverage (distance to 'antennas') these invisible 'antennas ' provide.

 

[voodooless]

Their website gives no clues besides stating that it has got WiFi (both bands)... and/or bluetooth.

Sound Wireless high-res transmission directly to your Smart speakers.​

The high-quality AV preamplifier can be used as a connection centre and interface for your Smart loudspeakers and power amplifiers. The high-resolution transmission of up to 24 bit / 96 kHz provides the basis for impressive sound experiences. You can stream wirelessly to up to 8 Smart loudspeakers

But yes, information is otherwise very limited, even in the manual.

 

[asraust]

Yes S/N (that is what you are talking about here, and not SINAD) - has an impact.... but it seldom (not never) is the cause of hiss ... hiss in 90%+ of cases is caused by other mismatch issues - mainly gain. (typically too much gain in the wrong places!)

So I got my NuXinema today, connected my two fronts to it and got massive hiss (room volume level).

I made a recording during a quiet film scene on low room volume (about one third of max volume on the NuXinema): https://we.tl/t-dnKSSXKfml
Just a recording from my mobile phone, but that's about how it sound. The hiss is constant in volume / independent of the volume setting on the NuXinema. Only disappears on "mute" setting.

I think it must be a defective unit. Or could this amount of hiss be explained by a gain mismatch with my power amps (two "Pro-Ject Amp Box DS2 Mono", no gain control, 550mV input sensitivity)?

 

[dlaloum]

So I got my NuXinema today, connected my two fronts to it and got massive hiss (room volume level).

I made a recording during a quiet film scene on low room volume (about one third of max volume on the NuXinema): https://we.tl/t-dnKSSXKfml
Just a recording from my mobile phone, but that's about how it sound. The hiss is constant in volume / independent of the volume setting on the NuXinema. Only disappears on "mute" setting.

I think it must be a defective unit. Or could this amount of hiss be explained by a gain mismatch with my power amps (two "Pro-Ject Amp Box DS2 Mono", no gain control, 550mV input sensitivity)?

Try dropping the gain on one, and raising it on the other....

 

[asraust]

Try dropping the gain on one, and raising it on the other....

The power amp is fixed gain. The volume setting on the pre (NuXinema) doesn't effect the hiss.

 

[dlaloum]

Hmmm - the project amp is very high gain - only 550mV for full rated continuous power.... similar to Quad amps...

What is the nominal output level from the NuXinema?

The amp is designed to receive a signal ranging from near 0 to max of 0.55V (RMS)

If the preamp is designed for output range with max of 4V, you may find that the lowest end of that range (which is what you are using given the amplifier input spec) is close to or within the noise floor - hence hiss.

You may need a passive attenuator between the two to match them more effectively?

I have used the similarly specced Quad 606 amps, but the pre's I used them with were rated nominal 1V... and results were good, with no noticeably hiss.

Lots of modern pre-amps, are geared/designed for relatively low gain class D power amps that are currently "in vogue" and require 4V inputs... if that applies to the NuXinema, it would probably explain the problem. That is what I would call an extreme gain mismatch.... very high gain power amp (0.5V input) with low level/high gain preamp (4V output) - the preamp output needs to be turned down - preferably in the analogue domain rather than digital, otherwise you will lose to much dynamic range

 

[voodooless]

Even so, it’s “only” a 18 dB difference (0.5 -> 4 V). So audibly, just 4x less loud. I doubt it will be fully inaudible when attenuated.

Making some assumptions here: we have 86 dB speaker, 120W available, 3 meter distance. That will bring us a maximum of about 100 dB. To hear the hiss it needs to be above the background noise. Let’s assume a background noise of 30 dB, which is very quiet. And let’s assume the noise is 10 dB above that. That gives a hiss at -60 dB. Now add the gain missmatch, brings us at about 78 dB SNR. Obviously these are ballpark figures. That’s still not an acceptable level, and definitely not on par with whatever “high-end” means.

 

[abdo123]

Hmmm - the project amp is very high gain - only 550mV for full rated continuous power.... similar to Quad amps...

that's just 12dB lower than 2 Volts, there is nothing very or high about it.

General purpose audio electronics are just generally ****** unless proven otherwise with measurements.

 

[abdo123]

That gives a hiss at -60 dB. Now add the gain missmatch, brings us at about 78 dB SNR. Obviously these are ballpark figures. That’s still not an acceptable level, and definitely not on par with whatever “high-end” means.

And that's why I never assume the measurements to be better than what is advertised just because it's THD+N and not just N.

 

[voodooless]

And that's why I never assume the measurements to be better than what is advertised just because it's THD+N and not just N.

From what we see here, they won't even get to the stated numbers in N alone. That's why I hold off judgment until we actually have measurements