Lab Gruppen FP 10000Q 4-Ch Amp Clone Review

[respice finem]

Lab Gruppen is one of the biggest names in pro audio amps worldwide. They have local USA and Canada distributors, and they are heavily used there.

Then it is an even better idea

 

[amirm]

With "Lab Gruppen" in the title I think it would be fair to not recommend a clone, at least until an original has been tested and thus performance of the clone can be judged properly.

What difference does it make what the original does? You can buy this amp and here is its performance relative to other amps I have tested. It out powers all of them with ease at very low cost. What the original does is neither here, nor there.

And please add the word clone to all instances where you name the company and the product name.

I did.

 

[DanielT]

Thanks for the test Amir. For home hifi use. Those loud fans, hm. It needs to be placed in a cabinet, with double walls and Isolver between them for sound insulation.

Alternatively, replace with quieter fans, if possible.

- Is it legal to clone the Lab Gruppen down to the styling but omitting the name plate? I am not sure.

I wondered about that too, good that you brought it up.
Buying clones is dubious for that reason plus the aspect of quality, durability.

If I wanted a 1000 watt PA amp I could buy a (real) Yamaha for not that much more. ......

It is reasonable since then you know what you are getting.

 

[JamesYeomans]

Please test the real one! We want to now what to expect from a genuine pro amp

Send Amir one then

 

[amirm]

Buying clones is dubious for that reason plus the aspect of quality, durability.

AI says the original was announced in 2006. So even if they have some patents on it, it is expired now. So there is no IP issue. Only moral and reliability/support.

 

[Gorgonzola]

From what I've seen of "pro" amps over the years, this one is typical in having a "forest" of high-order harmonic distortion -- in this case worse than usual. My own, personal conclusion is that a lot of people when back to tube amps from solid state in the '90s because of distortion profile. Of course, today's better s/s amps don't have the problem.

I might be castigated for saying so, but this amp will sound horrible in any audio enthusiast's main system: living proof that all amps DO NOT sound the same.

 

[respice finem]

Amps "broken by design" (or by execution) will have "sound of their own"... There are examples in this very forum.

Pass ACA Class A Power Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pass ACA Class A stereo power amplifier. It is a DIY design by the famous designer, Nelson Pass, meant to be starter amplifier for people new to audio electronics to build. There are many kits available. The one loaned to me from a long time...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SOTA amps, however, should not have "sound of their own".

 

[Keith_W]

SOTA amps, however, should not have "sound of their own".

This one does. The sound of wailing fans.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Think if you paired this guy with a pair of Cerwin Vegas or Klipschhorns, you could have used it for "harsh interrogation" purposes at Gitmo. Drottnar at 3 am, anyone?

As always, a great review, Amir. Thank you.

 

[Dyabolikal]

One thing to note is that many people buy these amps as 220v models from their source, or modify the internal jumpers/fuses and the power plug for 220v after purchase to further unleash the proverbial beast inside (standard safety precautions about high-voltage mods apply here - don't mess around if you're not capable or comfortable).

Sinbosen has instructions here: https://www.sinbosen.com/f712684/How-to-change-the-amplifier-voltage-between-110V-to-220V.htm

 

[CD2]

I'm really bothered by this "clone" business. I know less about the industry than many of you, but none of the recent "clones" fished up by a search are anything close to exact copies. So "Clone [famous name]" seems false on the face of it. Using that language winks at false advertising.

People want to make cheap gear, great! But be up-front about what you are selling.

 

[peniku8]

Not surprised that this amp overloaded Amir's test bench to the point that it couldn't be tested properly.
Here are the power figures I acquired of my FP-13000 clone (on my water cooled load bank):

Single channel:

2ch@4ohm power vs time:

Amp initially blew up after delivering ~4KW on one(!) channel for 90 seconds (!!!), hence the 'new' designation in those pics above, as I replaced both amp modules and the power supply with new ones (which included better cooling for the PSU; yes that vaccum drier sound is not by accident; PA amps MUST deliver ("full") power while baking out in the sun at 50°C outside; there is no excuse to shut down during a live show!).
2nd most powerful amp I've tested so far.

 

[peniku8]

There are plenty of points of concern:

- Is it legal to clone the Lab Gruppen down to the styling but omitting the name plate? I am not sure.

no and one of the most famous gruppen clone manufacturers (Sanway) got shut down by Lacoustics and d&b last year

- We don't know what will happen if you bridge the two channels.

exactly the same as when running two channels, as these kind of amps already operate in "half bridged" configuration by default (because that's actually easier on the PSU than running two channels)

- Claims to make 10,000 Watts, but only manages 3000W. Still impressive, but if you claim 10kW I expect 10kW.

Amir's equipment couldn't handle more
not all clone manufacturers build to the same standards, but I have one of those too and it does deliver what it promises

- Those noisy fans might be replaceable. I modded my Yamaha and replaced the stock fans with Noctuas, now it is silent unless you stick your head next to it.

absolutely, if you either a) only use it with high crest factor content or b) dont mind it blowing up

 

[peniku8]

A secondary fan had turned on, making the amp sound like a vacuum cleaner. Look at the front panel and the overtemp LED is lit for Channel B. No worries. I let it cool. Sadly, that did nothing. Not only is that indicator stuck on with the fan going nuts, none of the channels work anymore.

Conclusions
Man, these amps are no joke. Owner wants to use them to drive DBA subs. If it can be hidden away so the noise is not a problem, you have incredible amount of power for so little money. I wish the thing had come with dual AC connections (for US market). Then you could use all four channels.

Reliability of course is a concern. Is this a true circuit clone of the original? If so, then I say it is not very reliable. But if they have cut corners, then I would think twice about purchasing it based on my experience.

To expand on my previous posts:
my Sanway FP-13000 tests went like this:
-amp kept blowing the 230V 16A (C) circuit breaker 10 seconds into each test (drawing about 4400VA (no PFC!) from the wall)
-so I put it on a 230V 32A circuit, which it tolerated for 90 seconds and then blew up (I had the amp fan modded, so cooling was worse than stock performance)
-reapaired the PSU (blown power transistors) and it worked for another year or so
-then died again (in idle!) and I replaced the PSU and amp modules with new, revised ones
-kept blowing internal fuses on my tests with the new boards, which is what caused Amir's issues here: the yellow "temp" light means the internal fuses are blown and need to be replaced (only happened to me on the 2 ohm tests)

Thoughts on reliability: to my info, the og Lab Gruppen amps aren't the most reliable amps either (I know people who frequently have to service them), so it's not a surprise that the clones are potentially even worse. We (my company) exclusively deploy Powersoft amplification for live sound for that reason, but those clones are brilliant for high end/power home theatre installations and *extremely* popular over on AVS, especially with the BassEQ community, where a temporary outage isn't the end of the world. Just run appropriate wire gauges (and 230V/240V!) and circuit breakers and don't complain when your drivers blow

 

[Power Pop 23]

Why pay the price for an original 'Homer' when one can buy one half as smart for one third the cost ?



from the Send In The Clones segment of the Treehouse of Horror #13 show of Season 14

 

[frabor]

Seems the original has also a Single captive cord and only claims 2500W.

 

[Keith_W]

absolutely, if you either a) only use it with high crest factor content or b) dont mind it blowing up

(re: fan mods). Why do you say that? The Noctuas put out the same CFM as the stock fans.

 

[hansik]

I see many enthusiasts now going for CVR amps for their 21" and 18" subs.

 

[peniku8]

(re: fan mods). Why do you say that? The Noctuas put out the same CFM as the stock fans.

if CFM is equal under the same (static pressure) load conditions, then all's well (assuming the replacement fans are reliable)
I doubt you'll find CFM figures for those CN OEM fans in the gruppen clones tho and if you do, the figures will be based on free air measurements
the lab.gruppen design isn't super efficient compared to modern high end pro audio amplification so those fans do have to move some air

 

[Sal1950]

Thanks for the test Amir. For home hifi use. Those loud fans, hm.

In a pro situation, like for a stage amp, maybe acceptable?
But then the reliability factor comes into question when driven hard.
As a home Hi-Fi product, garbage.