KTB vs Topping E30 listening tests

[Pdxwayne]

Duran Duran - Come Undone. It's really bright by default, on some headphones borderline unlistenable, on others it's literally unlistenable. Not particularly an audiophile track or high quality by any means, but the bright effect throughout the track could help. Be prepared for some real ear fatigue though.

Thanks for the suggestion! Using Tidal playing the song from about 3 minutes out, in low volume, my daughter can't hear a difference between DAC.....I thought I heard a subtle difference in overall clarity.....But again could be my expectations bias.
: )

 

[ZENERGiA]

Thanks for the suggestion! Using Tidal playing the song from about 3 minutes out, in low volume, my daughter can't hear a difference between DAC.....I thought I heard a subtle difference in overall clarity.....But again could be my expectations bias.
: )

Did you listen sighted this time?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Did you listen sighted this time?

Yes, sighted this time just to see if I can hear any differences at all, before I decide if I should go ahead with blind test. : )

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I thought I found a short section of test song where I could distinguish which is which. I thought wrong.

5 tests: 2 correct and 3 wrong. : (

34 tests so far, only 19 correct.

Maybe I need a better song with lots of high notes over 6KHz? Any suggestions?

I mean...ok. I'm not sure what your trying to prove at this point. Obviously we've established that the distinctions you claimed in the E30 thread were not based on anything real. Now we're trying to prove that there might possibly, maybe, with enough time and effort and with exactly the right test track and the perfect listening position be a way to distinguish these two dacs from one another? Isn't that a little absurd? Hell, with speakers simply moving your head a couple inches forward or backward probably changes the sound exponentially more than the difference between the two dacs.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I mean...ok. I'm not sure what your trying to prove at this point. Obviously we've established that the distinctions you claimed in the E30 thread were not based on anything real. Now we're trying to prove that there might possibly, maybe, with enough time and effort and with exactly the right test track and the perfect listening position be a way to distinguish these two dacs from one another? Isn't that a little absurd? Hell, with speakers simply moving your head a couple inches forward or backward probably changes the sound exponentially more than the difference between the two dacs.

First of all, as I mentioned multiple times, my OP observations was based on original firmware on KTB vs non voltage match E30 with filter 5. I have mentioned multiple times that KTB with original firmware sounded sharper than KTB with latest version 2 firmware. I have asked people in KTB thread to help do measurements if they still have original firmware, but I got no response.

If you have followed my thread, even after updated my KTB to version 2 firmware, my kids could still hear a difference when comparing to non voltage match e30 with filter 5 (super slow). Other also mentioned that they can hear a difference with super slow filter. So, I don't know where you get the idea about my assertion was based on something not real.

Once I figured out e30 with filter 5 sounded difference, I wanted to know if I could hear a difference when E30 is using filter 1 and voltage matched at 120 hz.

All I have been during the last few days were no longer related to my original assertions. I have now moved on to checking if I could hear a difference once two DAC are voltage match up to 5KHz. Like you said, trying to hear a small difference at 6 kHz + is a bit absurd......But I am curious if I could do it and so far it proved very difficult. What I found last few days did not in anyway invalidate my original observation.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Filters are essentially EQ really. I mean sure if there's some sort of EQ that effects the frequency response one might hear a difference. However, I'd still doubt very much that under the uncontrolled test conditions you were using to make your assessment you could actually note a "detail retrieval" difference regardless of the filter used. The filters just don't make that significant a difference. As far as the updated firmware issue, who knows? Has there been any indication anywhere else that there was any notable SQ difference between the two firmwares? That sort of thing tends to draw a TON of attention under normal circumstances.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but the fundamental issue myself and others around here have is with folks making subjective claims that create pages and pages of debate in threads devoted to specific equipment but which are obviously based on incredibly inconclusive evidence.

And the repeated reference to your kids hearing a difference is dubious at best. I mean that test was by no means conclusive...

 

[Pdxwayne]

Filters are essentially EQ really. I mean sure if there's some sort of EQ that effects the frequency response one might hear a difference. However, I'd still doubt very much that under the uncontrolled test conditions you were using to make your assessment you could actually note a "detail retrieval" difference regardless of the filter used. The filters just don't make that significant a difference. As far as the updated firmware issue, who knows? Has there been any indication anywhere else that there was any notable SQ difference between the two firmwares? That sort of thing tends to draw a TON of attention under normal circumstances.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but the fundamental issue myself and others around here have is with folks making subjective claims that create pages and pages of debate in threads devoted to specific equipment but which are obviously based on incredibly inconclusive evidence.

And the repeated reference to your kids hearing a difference is dubious at best. I mean that test was by no means conclusive...

Yeah, I know, kids hearing a difference is dubious based on very limited tests I previously performed. I am curious too.

I just got my daughter to do KTB vs E30 (non voltage match and filter 5) blind listening test. She only wanted to do blind test twice.
Both times she correctly guess KTB as the sharper one. So my daughter did blind tests a total of 3 times for such non voltage match filter 5 comparisons and all 3 times she got it right.

 

[raif71]

@Pdxwayne , just go on your journey as long as you like and especially as long as you're willing. Me, I'm just waiting for a switch to do the DAC tests . When I have the switch and "will", I will see if practice hearing to the setup will let me differentiate between DACs. This "practice" might take months or years but it will be in the name of science

 

[Pdxwayne]

@Pdxwayne , just go on your journey as long as you like and especially as long as you're willing. Me, I'm just waiting for a switch to do the DAC tests . When I have the switch and "will", I will see if practice hearing to the setup will let me differentiate between DACs. This "practice" might take months or years but it will be in the name of science

Haha, hope you have better success than I to distinguish very minor differences. Have a great New Year!

 

[raif71]

Haha, hope you have better success than I to distinguish very minor differences. Have a great New Year!

Thanks... to you too and your family.

 

[BDWoody]

Haha, hope you have better success than I to distinguish very minor differences. Have a great New Year!

I'll bet he won't, but I'm sure he'll also be a good sport about it

Great New Year to all!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Filters are essentially EQ really. I mean sure if there's some sort of EQ that effects the frequency response one might hear a difference. However, I'd still doubt very much that under the uncontrolled test conditions you were using to make your assessment you could actually note a "detail retrieval" difference regardless of the filter used. The filters just don't make that significant a difference. As far as the updated firmware issue, who knows? Has there been any indication anywhere else that there was any notable SQ difference between the two firmwares? That sort of thing tends to draw a TON of attention under normal circumstances.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but the fundamental issue myself and others around here have is with folks making subjective claims that create pages and pages of debate in threads devoted to specific equipment but which are obviously based on incredibly inconclusive evidence.

And the repeated reference to your kids hearing a difference is dubious at best. I mean that test was by no means conclusive...

I added Parasound A21 amp to the chain just now. After I connected Yamaha integrated amp's preamp output to the Parasound, I played Duran Duran Come Undone and asked my daughter to do one blind test comparing KTB with E30 (non voltage match and using filter 5). She selected KTB again as the sharper one. 4 out of 4 correct.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

OK well like I said, there is some measurable roll off with the filters. Your daughter (unlike old guys like me) probably has ears capable of hearing up in the 18khz range. It's not impossible she's hearing something. Now have her listen to the Duran Duran song today on either one of the dacs, then come back tomorrow and listen again (with you having maybe switched the dacs) and try and guess if it's still the same dac...because that's the sort listening assessment the classic subjectivist brings to the table. My initial dispute with you was that you (not your daughter) could not possibly have heard what you claimed to have heard under the conditions in which you'd made the comparison. I think that's been shown to be the case...the filters on the E30 muddy the waters a bit. I'd forgotten they even exist. So go with filter 1...the point is the E30 is a perfectly transparent dac. It will sound the same as any other measurably transparent dac.

 

[solderdude]

KTB with E30 (non voltage match and using filter 5)

This is a completely pointless comparison.
Due to a deliberately rolled-off response.
This is no proof the E30 sounds different as you are using a non sampling theorem type of filtering.

When you want to know if DACs, adhering to the sampling theorem and not deliberately 'tuned' ones, are audibly different then you must set filter 1 or 3 in the E30.
All you prove with this test is that your daughter can detect upper treble roll-off.

 

[Pdxwayne]

OK well like I said, there is some measurable roll off with the filters. Your daughter (unlike old guys like me) probably has ears capable of hearing up in the 18khz range. It's not impossible she's hearing something. Now have her listen to the Duran Duran song today on either one of the dacs, then come back tomorrow and listen again (with you having maybe switched the dacs) and try and guess if it's still the same dac...because that's the sort listening assessment the classic subjectivist brings to the table. My initial dispute with you was that you (not your daughter) could not possibly have heard what you claimed to have heard under the conditions in which you'd made the comparison. I think that's been shown to be the case...the filters on the E30 muddy the waters a bit. I'd forgotten they even exist. So go with filter 1...the point is the E30 is a perfectly transparent dac. It will sound the same as any other measurably transparent dac.

Like I mentioned, my original post's observations were with KTB (with original firmware) vs e30 with filter 5. I did more of that comparisons yeaterday with my kid because you said my kids tests results were dubious. Now you admit the results are possible with my kids. However, you are now claiming I can't even hear the difference between E30 with filter 5 vs KTB, thus my original post was still not correct, am I correctly understanding you?

 

[Pdxwayne]

This is a completely pointless comparison.
Due to a deliberately rolled-off response.
This is no proof the E30 sounds different as you are using a non sampling theorem type of filtering.

When you want to know if DACs, adhering to the sampling theorem and not deliberately 'tuned' ones, are audibly different then you must set filter 1 or 3 in the E30.
All you prove with this test is that your daughter can detect upper treble roll-off.

I got your point. But there is one person here who doubt my kids could even hear a difference between KTB and E30 with filter 5. Thus I did more tests.....

Same person again doubt that I could even hear such difference, thus invalidate my original post. I guess I will need to still do this pointless comparisons. ; )

 

[BDWoody]

I got your point. But there is one person hear who doubt my kids could even hear a difference between KTB and E30 with filter 5. Thus I did more tests.....

Same person again doubt that I could even hear such difference, thus invalidate my original post. I guess I will need to still do this pointless comparisons. ; )

For yourself... You don't need to prove anything else to anyone. Unless you make more crazy claims...

Do you see yourself going through this process very often after this burst of science your family is likely losing their sense of humor about?

 

[Pdxwayne]

For yourself... You don't need to prove anything else to anyone. Unless you make more crazy claims...

Do you see yourself going through this process very often after this burst of science your family is likely losing their sense of humor about?

Haha, yeah, I will end this comparisons burst this week as my vacation days are being used up. Also, my family's patience are being used up too. : )

Next year I will be very busy at work and unlikely to do much for a while....

 

[BDWoody]

I've enjoyed watching you go through the process.

Thanks for keeping a good sense of humor about it all!

Happy New Year!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Interesting, I played "Last of the Mohicans" from Spirit of the Glen (The ultimate collection, The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards) via KTB and e30 with filter 1 (as is, without using L30 to do voltage match) and I thought KTB sounded sharper. I then got my son to do a quick blind test, he picked KTB as the sharper one too. He said his confidence level is 60%.

Based on my voltage measurements, KTB by default have higher voltage levels from 120hz until 8Khz or so, when compared to E30 as-is with filter 1. So I am not surprised.
See KTB measurements vs first E30 measurements row:

Based on these observations, I would not criticize people for claming to hear a difference between two DAC, used as is, without knowing that there are voltage output differences between them.