Klipsch Roy Delgado explaining why Klipsch measures so bad.

[GXAlan]

I just take exception to Roy's explanation that Klipsch are designed specifically to be placed in corners, that is either a cop out or unsatisfactory of an answer. But I do recognize the audience his interview is aimed for.

Think about monitor vs. floorstanders vs. in-ceiling vs on-wall vs in-wall vs upfiring Atmos speakers.

It would not be fair to comment that speakers designed for specific locations is unsatisfactory.

The Klipschorn is within the category of floorstanders known as a “corner-horn” speaker.

I may not have a desire for in-ceiling speakers the same way you may not have a desire for corner horns.

There are the Electro-Voice Patrician, University Classic, Jensen Imperial, Pi Seven Pi, etc. Of the classic models, only the Klipschorn remains in production, a reflection of business success vs. superior performance.

The Pi Speakers articulate their rationale for corner loading here:

https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

 

[M240i]

I just take exception to Roy's explanation that Klipsch are designed specifically to be placed in corners, that is either a cop out or unsatisfactory of an answer. But I do recognize the audience his interview is aimed for.

It's not clear to me you've read about the history of this corner-horn design.
There are numerous references on the interweb. Here's just one of many:

Klipsch Audio Technologies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roy is correct in all his statements. And he's careful to qualify his comments appropriately.

 

[PristineSound]

Think about monitor vs. floorstanders vs. in-ceiling vs on-wall vs in-wall vs upfiring Atmos speakers.

It would not be fair to comment that speakers designed for specific locations is unsatisfactory.

The Klipschorn is within the category of floorstanders known as a “corner-horn” speaker.

I may not have a desire for in-ceiling speakers the same way you may not have a desire for corner horns.

There are the Electro-Voice Patrician, University Classic, Jensen Imperial, Pi Seven Pi, etc. Of the classic models, only the Klipschorn remains in production, a reflection of business success vs. superior performance.

The Pi Speakers articulate their rationale for corner loading here:

https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

You misunderstood. Or perhaps, let me clarify. Roy is justifying the way how Klipsch are measured no good, by saying that's because it was designed to be placed in the corner.

Even if it was designed to be placed in the corner, based on the data from the current measurements would unlikely make those speakers perform better but it comes across as if saying that that Klipsch are designed to be placed in the corner is a fixed for all the ailments and flaws of Klipsch speakers.

I explained why in my previous posts. The measurement above the transition frequency just aren't great. Even if you place them in the corner, it won't have much affect, maybe some affect at the lower frequency past the transition and if it's really closed to the corner. I also mentioned that the DI and ERDI aren't great, and designed just for the corners wouldn't justify a bad DI and ERDI.

Now again, some of their new models are better. And I also stared that their vintage looking speakers are limited by the existing cabinet design.

 

[kyuu]

What about the things Klipsh measures off the charts good at like effeciency and lack of compression and transient reponse?

What is "transient response"? Klipsch does do well with response linearity at high SPLs, but nothing terribly amazing compared to its peers particularly when the frequency response at ANY SPL is already severely uneven. I do think efficiency is underrated and prefer more sensitive speakers, but Klipsch, by and large, are actually pretty average in terms of sensitivity when you look at actual measurements and not their marketing bull (with certain exceptions).

 

[Bjorn]

This is one of the better replies I have seen from a brand in the audio world with proper techinical information and good understanding. And also quite funny as the interviewer doesn't understand much and keept asking questions Roy Delgado had already answered clearly.

 

[Chris A]

Perhaps your specific setup has a very different experience. And I would be delighted to give it a little, not sure I am inviting myself over

Well, you see where I live. I'm always around nowadays. If you're through the area, shoot me a message.

I just take exception to Roy's explanation that Klipsch are designed specifically to be placed in corners, that is either a cop out or unsatisfactory of an answer. But I do recognize the audience his interview is aimed for.

I think you're generalizing Roy's comments beyond what he was referring to. He was talking about only two loudspeaker models: the new AK7 Klipschorn (with DSP option), and the AL6 La Scala (with DSP option), which is why he is presently out on the road campaigning about. These two models are fully horn loaded down to ~40 Hz and ~80 Hz, respectively. (Room loading takes over from there.) Corner loading is only defined explicitly for the Klipschorns, which is the way they have been advertised since 1948-continuously since then. The La Scalas have never been advertised as "corner horns" in my experience.

I agree with others here--that you should take a little time to read about the Khorn. I recommend the Heyser article I posted above. It shows the pros and cons of the design as it stood nearly 40 years ago--well before inexpensive in-room acoustic measurements and DSP. The latest version (AK7 with DSP option, tri-amped) sounds very much like the Heritage Jubilees.

Chris

 

[Cbdb2]

it seems like all the focus is on poor FR and directivity (which is also kind of FR). What about the things Klipsh measures off the charts good at like effeciency and lack of compression and transient reponse?

Power is cheap now, efficiency is overrated. Lots of speakers in that price range and size (actually a lot smaller) have a lack of compression, and FR and transient response are 2 sides of the same measurement, ie you can get one from the other.
And the things are too big.

 

[PristineSound]

Oh, and take a look at the horizontal directivities of these Klipsch. If you placed these speakers at a perfect symmetrical corner and symmetrically, you 45 degrees to the right and left before you hit the wall. What does this data tell you? You will not have linear reflected sound across the frequency band above the transition frequency.

If this is truly designed for the corner, one would imagine that either the horizontal dispersion is limited to 45 degrees left and right or the DI and ERDI is very linear so one can EQ it.

 

[PristineSound]

Well, you see where I live. I'm always around nowadays. If you're through the area, shoot me a message.


I think you're generalizing Roy's comments beyond what he was referring to. He was talking about only two loudspeaker models: the new AK7 Klipschorn (with DSP option), and the AL6 La Scala (with DSP option), which is why he is presently out on the road campaigning about. These two models are fully horn loaded down to ~40 Hz and ~80 Hz, respectively. (Room loading takes over from there.) Corner loading is only defined explicitly for the Klipschorns, which is the way they have been advertised since 1948-continuously since then. The La Scalas have never been advertised as "corner horns" in my experience.

I agree with others here--that you should take a little time to read about the Khorn. I recommend the Heyser article I posted above. It shows the pros and cons of the design as it stood nearly 40 years ago--well before inexpensive in-room acoustic measurements and DSP. The latest version (AK7 with DSP option, tri-amped) sounds very much like the Heritage Jubilees.

Chris

The interview specifically asked about Klipsch as a whole and in general. If he was only talking about certain models, the spin on those model aren't available, so I can't comment if what he said is valid or not. But what about other models? Roy didn't explain why other models doesn't measure well.

Anyway, the important thing is their newer speakers are performing better based on the spin, that is the most important thing for consumers.

 

[Chris A]

But what about other models? Roy didn't explain why other models doesn't measure well.

You should know that Roy has historically worked on the Cinema (Professional) line and the Heritage line (Klipschorns, La Scalas, Cornwalls, Heresies, Fortes, and now Jubilees). He apparently hasn't been the designated engineer on the smaller/less expensive models, so his response is consistent with that information--what he's worked on.

Klipsch is still divided into two main campuses/sites: the headquarters in Indianapolis, IN, and the original site in Hope AR (where he has always worked and lived while working for Klipsch). There have been manufacturing facilities in China in the past that have made the smaller models (largely), but I don't know the status of these, since a majority of that manufacturing was moved back to the US 10-15 years ago. Klipsch no longer talks about China or other overseas operations, IIRC.

One thing that I believe should be mentioned:

For loudspeakers targeted for lower priced markets, i.e., well below the "knee" (point 3, below) in the CAIV (cost as an independent variable) curve, it should be noted that design trades to drive cost down are actually below what any typical engineer would consider to be below that which should be traded.

This is where ~90-95% of the loudspeaker market has always resided--WELL below the knee in the CAIV curve (like at points 1 or 2). This means that trades on horn loading of woofers, time alignment via DSP, quality of driver sound, reliability of components, etc., these are traded away in order to produce less expensive designs.

Chris

 

[PristineSound]

Hey, that's a real "cardioid" dispersion with 120°. Unlike most cardioid speakers!

The directionality does extend all the way down to approximately 200hz. I don't know if there is a hard cut off where a speaker is considered cardioid speakers or not. I wonder if there is an industry standard on that. The D&D's directionality extends down to about 150hz and disperses around 90°.

 

[Cbdb2]

You should know that Roy has historically worked on the Cinema (Professional) line and the Heritage line (Klipschorns, La Scalas, Cornwalls, Heresies, Fortes, and now Jubilees). He apparently hasn't been the designated engineer on the smaller/less expensive models, so his response is consistent with that information--what he's worked on.

Klipsch is still divided into two main campuses/sites: the headquarters in Indianapolis, IN, and the original site in Hope AR (where he has always worked and lived while working for Klipsch). There have been manufacturing facilities in China in the past that have made the smaller models (largely), but I don't know the status of these, since a majority of that manufacturing was moved back to the US 10-15 years ago. Klipsch no longer talks about China or other overseas operations, IIRC.

One thing that I believe should be mentioned:

For loudspeakers targeted for lower priced markets, i.e., well below the "knee" (point 3, below) in the CAIV (cost as an independent variable curve) curve, it should be noted that design trades to drive cost down are actually below what any typical engineer would consider to be below that which should be traded.

View attachment 447016

This is where ~90-95% of the loudspeaker market has always resided--WELL below the knee in the CAIV curve (like at points 1 or 2). This means that trades on horn loading of woofers, time alignment via DSP, quality of driver sound, reliability of components, etc., these are traded away in order to produce less expensive designs.

Chris

A graph that shows used cars are cheaper than new ones is your proof? I sort of agree on your point if cost is the manufacturing cost, and not the consumers price, but we never know the manufacturing cost and it could be anywhere from 2% (audiophool cables) to 50% of the consumer price. And there are other factors involved in cost, economy of scale is huge, marketing, servicing, etc.

 

[PristineSound]

One thing that I believe should be mentioned:

For loudspeakers targeted for lower priced markets, i.e., well below the "knee" (point 3, below) in the CAIV (cost as an independent variable curve) curve, it should be noted that design trades to drive cost down are actually below what any typical engineer would consider to be below that which should be traded.

View attachment 447016

This is where ~90-95% of the loudspeaker market has always resided--WELL below the knee in the CAIV curve (like at points 1 or 2). This means that trades on horn loading of woofers, time alignment via DSP, quality of driver sound, reliability of components, etc., these are traded away in order to produce less expensive designs.

Chris

Just to be clear, I didn't intend this to be a bash on Klipsch day. If it came across like that, I apologize. I also mentioned that their new speakers are actually pretty darn decent. Spinaroma is down right now, so I can't screenshot some examples, but when I looked at them earlier today, they seem to be pretty good, particularly the DI and ERDI.

If there was some home theatre package deal on the newer Klipsch that measures well, I would not be opposed to getting them at all, except; I don't have the space for a home theatre.

I was just saying the idea of designing a speaker for the corners of a room just doesn't make sense AND the data of their speakers just simply doesn't collaborate with this claim neither; if anything, those speakers would likely perform worse if placed in the corner. Now, I also recognized that maybe he was only talking about specific models (which was clear in that interview), if so, there is no spin on those models, so can't comment on it.

 

[Bjorn]

I was just saying the idea of designing a speaker for the corners of a room just doesn't make sense

Really? Personally I would love to design a hornspeaker for corner placement as well. The corner can extend the horn's directivity and also pick up a lot of gain. It can also make a large horn speaker disseaper better with such a placement. While everyone doesn't have a room for it, it can be great for some.

Here was my design thought BTW. A big speaker and I already have tested the top horn. Sure, one could place it somewhere else as well.

 

[PristineSound]

Really? Personally I would love to design a hornspeaker for corner placement as well. The corner can extend the horn's directivity and also pick up a lot of gain. It can also make a large horn speaker disseaper better with such a placement. While everyone doesn't have a room for it, its' can be great for some.

Here was my design thought BTW. A big speaker and I already have tested the top horn. Sure, one could place it somewhere else as well.
View attachment 447032

If you want to invest the R&D resource in a corner only speaker, by all means, go for it.

But I would love to hear your not-corner-only speakers.

 

[Bjorn]

If you want to invest the R&D resource in a corner only speaker, by all means, go for it.

But I would love to hear your not-corner-only speakers.

Great tactics. Turn the original statement to something else and a straw man argument

I was just saying the idea of designing a speaker for the corners of a room just doesn't make sense

 

[PristineSound]

Great tactics. Turn the original statement to something else and a straw man argument

So what kind of reply are you looking for from me then?

What were you expecting me to say or what were you hoping me to say?

 

[ahofer]

I’m still curious about the alleged defects of the Spinorama measurement suite, which is much more relevant for me than whether one or another design should be made without my money.

 

[Chris A]

I’m still curious about the alleged defects of the Spinorama measurement suite...

Pull out your Toole, 3rd edition, page 121, where it discusses "early reflections" estimate. This is estimated from "typical room" dimensions and placement of loudspeakers in-room.

This curve (early reflections) also used in the resultant estimated amplitude response. Polar sonograms are much more useful, I've found, than estimating early reflections from a "typical room" and room placement.

The other thing is this: when you consider something like a Klipschorn, and then look at the early reflections estimate, and think about how one would apply that curve to the Klipschorn (or La Scala in eighth space or quarter space loading, or any other loudspeaker in room loading [which, by the way, is all of them...at some low frequency], then you begin to see a problem.

Chris

 

[mhardy6647]

Y'all might find this still-current thread at AK of some interest vis-a-vis contemporary Klipsch efforts to stay current with their Heritage models.

New changes in Klipsch's Heritage series

Over on the K-forum, Mike Murgalo (user:MMurg) has been chronicling Klipsch's new changes to its Heritage series loudspeakers. Some of those changes include: Now using straight-sided midrange horns in the Klipschorn, La Scala, and Cornwall, replacing the 1962-vintage K-400 series collapsing...

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