Klipsch Roy Delgado explaining why Klipsch measures so bad.

[Travis]

Fair. Can someone share a third party measurement that has a high level of certainty on its accuracy on any one of the Klipsch heritage line speakers?

there were other measurements from Erin, from Stereophile that links were posted (I realize that many are in strong disagreement with JA’s subjective comments, but I don’t believe any one has criticized his methodology, except on testing speakers designed specifically 1/8 space).

 

[PristineSound]

there were other measurements from Erin, from Stereophile that links were posted (I realize that many are in strong disagreement with JA’s subjective comments, but I don’t believe any one has criticized his methodology, except on testing speakers designed specifically 1/8 space).

I posted the Heresy and Forte from Erin already. They are no bueno and Erin also said they are no bueno from his subjective experience unfortunately.

I never go by what JA says, it's absolutely worthless, he has never said anything bad about anything no matter how they measured. That is expected with big magazines that relies on advertising dollars and manufacturers sending you their products to review.

 

[Travis]

Fair. Can someone share a third party measurement that has a high level of certainty on it's accuracy on any one of the Klipsch heritage line speakers?

On the Khorn or Jubilee you won’t get good valid measurements because they can be done with a Klipple NFS and Atkinson can’t get large speakers in his home where he tests (he tested the KHorn on his driveway).

Heyser tested a KHorn for Audio magazine many, many years ago that has been posted in here somewhere, there is no higher level on the certainly of his accuracy outside of a chamber, he invented the field.

The Klipsch chambers have a giant revolving door that has 4 sections, one section is an 1/8 space (corner) that allows for accurate testing, including polar plots. JBL’s used to have 1/8 space testing functionality, don’t know if it still does or not.

@Bjorn has done a lot of testing on the 402 horn that sits atop the Jubilee bass bin, maybe even with the Celestion driver, but it would be without the patented extended phase plug that prevents beaming inherent in all compression drivers to a much higher frequency then with a stock driver.

I believe Erin and others have tested the Heresy, Cornwall IV (?) and the prior version Forte IiI (?).

However, none of it is germain to the original post, comments of Roy in the video. The measurements done by others may relate to the many tangential points discussed along the way in this thread.

 

[Travis]

As someone who built a set of Speakerlab Model Ks back in 1974 and then schlepped those monstrous piles of lumber around for almost twenty years, and having followed most of this thread, I for one don't regret leaving the whole Klipsch (or clone) scene in the rear view mirror. Good riddance. I still have the mid range horns and tweeters. Free to a good home. Won't ship.

The Speakerlab versions of KHorn never measured up to snuff. Kits and built versions with whatever drivers the buyer selected, offered as discount alternative when the patents ran out.

There are curves floating out there that Paul Klipsch ran showing difference between a current Klipschorn and a Speakerlab version, while many many were happy with their Speakerlab alternative, there were shortcomings within the audible range. Speakerlab was still in existence last I looked a few years ago, they are in Washington and do installations and make a tv or speaker mounting bracket, no speakers.

They used “Klipschorn” in some early advertising which Klipsch forced them to remove for trademark violations.

 

[Chris A]

I never go by what JA says, it's absolutely worthless, he has never said anything bad about anything no matter how they measured.

It doesn't appear that Mr. Atkinson has significantly updated his loudspeaker acoustic measurement methods in almost 30 years. He still puts stick-on accelerometers on every loudspeaker he tests (as if that tells you anything about fully horn-loaded loudspeakers, much less corner horns). His testing of Khorns in an Art Dudley's driveway was an absolute fiasco (just before his friend and colleague Dudley passed away from cancer about six months later). I think the state of the art in in-room acoustic measurement has changed, and certainly--what to actually look at--has changed in 30 years. He still doesn't "get it" with what's different about horn-loading. This is clear in how he tries to measure and what he publishes.

I posted the Heresy and Forte from Erin already. They are no bueno and Erin also said they are no bueno from his subjective experience unfortunately.

Looking at what Erin uses for his listening playlist, I wouldn't be too excited to repeat his subjective listening opinions on specific loudspeakers. It looks as if he's actually accommodated to the sound of small box loudspeakers (or perhaps even juke boxes that were still around in his youth in the 1980s). (They're really not the recordings that I would use to hear the stressing performance of loudspeakers under test--rather they seem to be "feel good" recordings from his youth--which was pretty narrow in terms of genres.)

Additionally, I think you need to consider the problems of the near-field measurement method. When you look at the problems that Erin had while measuring a loudspeaker having a single aperture (the Danley SH-50), you can see that "one size does not fit all" (in terms of acoustic measurement). NFS has real problems with anything other than small box direct radiating loudspeakers. (You should keep this in mind when you think about doing an MEH. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned this, and it was glossed over like it wasn't even said.)

Unless you are prepared to build a full-scale anechoic chamber (like Klipsch and other large manufacturing companies--and acoustic measurement service companies-have on-site), I believe you need to start your own process of measuring loudspeakers in-room--like the rest of us that are serious about this subject.

NFS tries to eliminate the need for large chambers (but it doesn't--and it can't). And large anechoic chambers fail to tell you what the loudspeakers do when placed in-room--your listening room. The chambers are there to help develop loudspeakers, but they don't tell you how they actually perform in-room. They show only direct arrivals, but fail to tell you anything about directivity of loudspeakers and what their directivity patterns do to in-room.

The Heyser article on the Khorn (1986) has the best measurement information on the Khorn that actually I've seen--and that's why I posted it. The problem is that the design of the Khorn crossovers has significantly changed since 1986. The time misalignments are still there, but the other amplitude response issues have changed.

Additionally, I see an unbalanced over-emphasis on amplitude response (fortunately, this discussion has progressed to both on and off axis). However, no one is paying any attention to phase response, and modulation distortion (the real difference in sound quality between direct radiating loudspeakers and fully horn loaded ones) is not even acknowledged. I think the consumer market for loudspeakers needs to wake up with respect to these performance areas--since they much more heavily affect how a loudspeaker subjectively sounds like in-room than loudspeakers that have simply been dialed-in with Dirac or similar app in-room.

Lastly, the manufacturers do have the information that you asked for, and they give it to their commercial sound customers in standard format: EASE data files. Klipsch has posted this information for their commercial loudspeakers (cinema) in the past, but about 10 years ago, they removed it from their websites. I've got that data for their cinema loudspeakers, as well as the same data from Danley Sound Labs (which I believe still posts their EASE data). You can see everything except maybe modulation distortion performance in those EASE files.

Note: one of the contributors that has recently posted in this thread--has significant ties to Klipsch (perhaps even been paid legally, and runs the "Klipsch Museum"), but has failed to disclose his association. Let's see how long it take him to acknowledge this fact openly here. [This is also the same individual that helped run off all the DIYers from the Klipsch forum as a moderator, i.e., their own customers trying improve the performance of Klipsch products via DIY and third-party modifications/hardware. I'll not thank him for his contributions to that effort here... ].

Chris

 

[gberchin]

... his knowledge of filter and crossover implementation, particularly IIR. Use of FIR, specifically for time domain corrections, is not something I've gathered he is as familiar with.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with time domain correction. It's just one of those things that can easily turn into a Pandora's Box. There is no general solution that can naively be applied to all cases.

A large part of the problem is that there are different definitions of "correct" in the time domain correction realm.

 

[PristineSound]

It doesn't appear that Mr. Atkinson has significantly updated his loudspeaker acoustic measurement methods in almost 30 years. He still puts stick-on accelerometers on every loudspeaker he tests (as if that tells you anything about fully horn-loaded loudspeakers, much less corner horns). His testing of Khorns in an Art Dudley's driveway was an absolute fiasco (just before his friend and colleague Dudley passed away from cancer about six months later). I think the state of the art in in-room acoustic measurement has changed, and certainly--what to actually look at--has changed in 30 years. He still doesn't "get it" with what's different about horn-loading. This is clear in how he tries to measure and what he publishes.


Looking at what Erin uses for his listening playlist, I wouldn't be too excited to repeat his subjective listening opinions on specific loudspeakers. It looks as if he's actually accommodated to the sound of small box loudspeakers (or perhaps even juke boxes that were still around in his youth in the 1980s). (They're really not the recordings that I would use to hear the stressing performance of loudspeakers under test--rather they seem to be "feel good" recordings from his youth--which was pretty narrow in terms of genres.)

Additionally, I think you need to consider the problems of the near-field measurement method. When you look at the problems that Erin had while measuring a loudspeaker having a single aperture (the Danley SH-50), you can see that "one size does not fit all" (in terms of acoustic measurement). NFS has real problems with anything other than small box direct radiating loudspeakers. (You should keep this in mind when you think about doing an MEH. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned this, and it was glossed over like it wasn't even said.)

Unless you are prepared to build a full-scale anechoic chamber (like Klipsch and other large manufacturing companies--and acoustic measurement service companies-have on-site), I believe you need to start your own process of measuring loudspeakers in-room--like the rest of us that are serious about this subject.

NFS tries to eliminate the need for large chambers (but it doesn't--and it can't). And large anechoic chambers fail to tell you what the loudspeakers do when placed in-room--your listening room. The chambers are there to help develop loudspeakers, but they don't tell you how they actually perform in-room. They show only direct arrivals, but fail to tell you anything about directivity of loudspeakers and what their directivity patterns do to in-room.

The Heyser article on the Khorn (1986) has the best measurement information on the Khorn that actually I've seen--and that's why I posted it. The problem is that the design of the Khorn crossovers has significantly changed since 1986. The time misalignments are still there, but the other amplitude response issues have changed.

Additionally, I see an unbalanced over-emphasis on amplitude response (fortunately, this discussion has progressed to both on and off axis). However, no one is paying any attention to phase response, and modulation distortion (the real difference in sound quality between direct radiating loudspeakers and fully horn loaded ones) is not even acknowledged. I think the consumer market for loudspeakers needs to wake up with respect to these performance areas--since they much more heavily affect how a loudspeaker subjectively sounds like in-room than loudspeakers that have simply been dialed-in with Dirac or similar app in-room.

Lastly, the manufacturers do have the information that you asked for, and they give it to their commercial sound customers in standard format: EASE data files. Klipsch has posted this information for their commercial loudspeakers (cinema) in the past, but about 10 years ago, they removed it from their websites. I've got that data for their cinema loudspeakers, as well as the same data from Danley Sound Labs (which I believe still posts their EASE data). You can see everything except maybe modulation distortion performance in those EASE files.

Note: one of the contributors that has recently posted in this thread--has significant ties to Klipsch (perhaps even been paid legally, and runs the "Klipsch Museum"), but has failed to disclose his association. Let's see how long it take him to acknowledge this fact openly here. [This is also the same individual that helped run off all the DIYers from the Klipsch forum as a moderator, i.e., their own customers trying improve the performance of Klipsch products via DIY and third-party modifications/hardware. I'll not thank him for his contributions to that effort here... ].

Chris

So now Erin's measurements are also no bueno? And his selection of music is no bueno?

And the NFS, which is also used by the pro industry for very large speakers btw, also no bueno on top of the no bueno Spinaroma, so no bueno x 2.

So basically any objective and subjective measures that doesn't give these Klipsch a good mark are no bueno, no bueno, no bueno.

If someone else scan these Klipsch with the NFS and it was good, will all of the sudden the NFS and the Spinaroma be bueno?

There will always be faithful defenders.

 

[kyuu]

Oh good, now we're to the part of the program where the Klippel NFS doesn't work because horns and room corners are magic.

 

[Chris A]

Guys, it's like you're trying to misunderstand. If you're instead trying to learn (like many others that read these comments but don't post here), then my next comments are appropriate:

Go look at Erin's own comments about trying to measure the SH-50. I think you will see a lot of issues with near field measurements of horns that he wasn't able to work through or understand at the time.

The NFS will tell you something regardless of where you position it. The question is, is it valid for the application--the loudspeaker under test, and where you position the moving microphone setup? (The same problems exist for big full-range dipole radiators.)

You don't see Erin trying to measure anything else (Synergy horns) from Danley Sound Labs (even though he was extremely impressed with their sound and his day talking to Tom Danley in Georgia at DSL's facility)--or any other fully horn-loaded loudspeaker--do you?

Chris

 

[Chris A]

If someone else scan these Klipsch with the NFS and it was good, will all of the sudden the NFS and the Spinaroma be bueno

Which loudspeakers are you talking about? The ones with little horns that can be accommodated by the travel of the NFS gantry? Or the larger models that have comparatively very large horn mouths? Klipsch built their chamber for a reason, and they use it on every loudspeaker they produce in Hope. They also own an NFS--according to Klippel. I've never seen any data from that device.

Chris

 

[PristineSound]

You don't see Erin trying to measure anything else (Synergy horns) from Danley Sound Labs (even though he was extremely impressed with their sound and his day talking to Tom Danley in Georgia at DSL's facility)--or any other fully horn-loaded loudspeaker--do you?

Below is Erin's language of being "extremely impressed." Anyway, you definitely get the loyal customer reward of the century.

Nevertheless, I will be on the hunt to hear these Klipsch heritage for the sake of curiosity.

 

[Chris A]

Yes, that's pretty much what I heard on video and elsewhere. However, I also saw his face when he talked about the problems with NFS measurements of the SH-50.

That told me a lot more...

Chris

 

[Chris A]

By the way, the SH-50 was EQed (passively) for full-space operation, not half space or quarter space (like I used my SH-50 in my setup). I had to EQ the midbass down, as he mentioned. That was a 5-minute problem to solve via DSP. You should see the crossovers--they're a work of art. And the phase response is linear--the only loudspeakers that I've tested that achieved that using passive crossovers.

I don't use the SH-50 anymore [and it's for sale if anyone else wants to know about the loudspeaker in detail] because its 50-degree horizontal coverage is too small for my setup needs. I use the K-402-MEH instead--which is a great deal more fit-for-duty in my setup. The SH-60 would also be too small; my need is 90 degrees horizontal coverage.

Chris

 

[Chris A]

And again, by the way, the "Hyperion" (now called an "HRE1") is nothing but an SH-60 on top of two 15" "subwoofers"...direct radiating, with big on-board amplifiers and DSP to completely flatten the amplitude AND phase response. I'm sure that they sound quite impressive.

Again yet again, my needs would be for 90 degrees horizontal coverage.

Chris

 

[Chris A]

I shall bestow on you the title "Defender of the Holy Klipsch faith."

Sorry, but that's actually someone else. I've already said a lot on the subject--(but you haven't actually asked me if I like any of the other Klipsch products outside of the Jubilee, which I really don't).

However, the story changes when you start talking about Danley products. All the Danley Synergy models are built for PA-duty, including the number and quality of their drivers in each loudspeaker model, etc. (120+ dB at 1m), so in general, they're a bit rough and require careful EQing, and perhaps replacement of certain drivers for home hi-fi use to sound smoother.

But I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with their stuff--even if it is basically PA-only.

I haven't heard their studio monitors yet (and they have two different models, with one model having a dedicated subwoofer). That would be interesting.

Chris

 

[Chris A]

By the way, I think you went too far on your graphic you just posted--calling it "trash". That could gain the attention of a moderator, and not in a good way.

Chris

 

[PristineSound]

By the way, I think you went too far on your graphic you just posted--calling it "trash". That could gain the attention of a moderator, and not in a good way.

Chris

Manufactured outrage from a person who attacked/insulted me on a personal level?

Generated by ChatGPT based on the following: "Generate a logo of someone in an amour defending criticizism of Klipsch Jubilee speakers."

 

[Chris A]

Manufactured outrage from a person who attacked/insulted me on a personal level?

Wow, I think you need to take a break...and think carefully. No attacks from me, and certainly, nothing ever personal...it's just audio.

Chris

 

[PristineSound]

Wow, I think you need to take a break...and think carefully. No attacks from me, and certainly, nothing ever personal...it's just audio.

Chris

Post 187 was my last discussion with you, then you kept relying to me when I wasn't even addressing you. So finally post 215 was a comedy relief and a sign of moving on because you clearly have no plans to stop denying science and data.

But then you decided to manufacture fake outage to threaten me because you are being called out?

And the denial of the personal insults that you started this thread with. It's all here for anyone to see, including moderators. In fact, please do report me.

Again, defend away, I don't have any else to say to you. Everything is on this thread for anyone, including the moderator, to read. . .along with the data and science. Kindly do not reply to any of my comments or address me.

 

[RickS]

I go away for part of the day and lots of banter here. I also forgot to act on the lack of an opening summary and now leaves me wondering whether this thread was doomed from the start.

Will sort it out later, but it is just audio and so this thread is now taking a break too!