Klipsch R-41M Bookshelf Speaker Review

[edechamps]

I see 1db variations that seems consistent between the measurements in that graph. Am i reading it wrong?

Sorry, I meant the total band. ±1 dB is about right yes.

 

[JIW]

mpedance measurements show that the Klipsch spec of 8 ohms is a fantasy:

Response dips dangerously close to a short at 300 Hz or so. You better have a lot of amplification power there especially since sensitivity is low there as well.

You may have misread the graph. The impedance at 300 Hz is slightly above 3 Ohm. Still, according to the IEC specification method the minimal impedance must be at least 80% of the nominal impedance. In this case, for the 3 Ohm minimum, nominal impedance would be about 3.8 Ohm which may be rounded up to 4 Ohm.

Why it may still be specced at 8 Ohm is written in this article by audioholics.

Edit: The spec sheet says nominal impedance is '8 Ohm compatible' rather than 8 Ohm. This seems to indicate that rather than the nominal impedance being 8 Ohm, Klipsch claims the impedance is such that it works with amplifiers specced for 8 Ohm loads.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The woofer output doesn't arrive before tweeter in a conventional design like this. Even if you have drivers physically aligned, the crossover will delay the woofer response.
That sharp peak at 1.5ms is a part of tweeter response. It's already combined with woofer response at this point, that's why it's so "deep". The wide "mountain" that follows it is a part of woofer's response. You need tho shift it to the left to get rid of this misalignment. (Both drivers are connected in reverse polarity here btw)
View attachment 50889

Oooookay, now I see where we're at cross-purposes. You're looking at the tail of the woofer's step, where Amir has written "poor crossover integration".

I'm looking at the rise of the woofer's step, which is 0.2ms to the right of the tweeter's step (see the blue circle I drew on Amir's graph in post #38).

I think the issue here is that the odd behaviour Amir has highlighted is not actually to do with crossover integration, but rather something that is occuring in the woofer system itself. I think it's very likely related mostly to the resonance at around 1000Hz.

In any case, moving the mic will not correct this.

 

[Darkweb]

Answers galore:

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprod...dp/113892136X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=toole+floyd

If Floyde Toole believed the “correct” thinking was everyone’s taste in speakers was the same I’d wipe my ass with his $54 book and demand a refund.

 

[gr-e]

I'm looking at the rise of the woofer's step, which is 0.2ms to the right of the tweeter's step (see the blue circle I drew on Amir's graph in post #38).

The blue circle is the tweeter's step, the woofer step starts at around 1.3ms

 

[andreasmaaan]

The blue circle is the tweeter's step, the woofer step starts at around 1.3ms

The green circle I've drawn is the tweeter's step. The blue circle could be some very odd tweeter behaviour, but it's extremely likely it's the beginning of the woofer's step (which of course peaks after the tweeter's step, but which IMO almost certainly begins 0.2ms before it):

That will be the last I labour this point

 

[mhardy6647]

And boy, are those some highs. If you have not shaved, they are sharp enough to do that for you.

That's the Klipsch house sound, all righty.
Not every single Klipsch loudspeaker product ever produced is like that, but most of them are (IME and IMO).

Are all Klipsch speakers really poor, their Scalas hve some of the worst measurements I have ever seen.
Keith

Use of LaScalas in combat zones is subject to the Geneva Convention.

 

[KSTR]

The woofer output doesn't arrive before tweeter in a conventional design like this. Even if you have drivers physically aligned, the crossover will delay the woofer response.
That sharp peak at 1.5ms is a part of tweeter response. It's already combined with woofer response at this point, that's why it's so "deep". The wide "mountain" that follows it is a part of woofer's response. You need tho shift it to the left to get rid of this misalignment. (Both drivers are connected in reverse polarity here btw)
View attachment 50889

I'm sorry, your interpretation is a bit wrong. When acoustic centers are aligned, both woofer and tweeter response start at exactly zero, though the woofer slope is much more gradually increasing, reflecting the bandwidth limit. But they do start at time zero, group delay at high frequencies is always zero, in any minimum phase system (speaker drivers -- with or without normal crossovers -- are always minimum phase to at least first order precision).

What we see here is a very typical step response of design with a set back tweeter (mounted in the waveguide). The initial falling slope is the higher frequency content of the woofer (neg polarity, the initial direction is the call-sign for this). Then the tweeter kicks in, overlaying the total pressure, with pos. polarity, but it decays quickly so from 1.5ms we see the MF/LF content of the woofer again.

To correct this, the woofer needs to be time-delayed with an allpass having about 150us of constant group delay up to at least two octaves beyond the XO freq so that even the HF content of the woofer gets properly delayed. Alternatively, a delay lowpass of similar behavior could be used.
Hard to do in passive...

Note that for set back tweeter designs (like any typical coaxial) there are more valid targets than strict acoustic centers aligned (by time-of-flight and/or by group-delaying the closer driver), some tradeoffs can be made, matching physical delay of the tweeter to the group delay of the woofer (with XO filter, of course). By this, a steeper slope for the woofer can be used than for the tweeter and the sum is almost linear phase. See here, for one example.

 

[KSTR]

The green circle I've drawn is the tweeter's step. The blue circle could be some very odd tweeter behaviour, but it's extremely likely it's the beginning of the woofer's step

Correct! ;-)

 

[snake3276120]

Fortunately I didn't get this!

@amirm if you have a chance could you please review Dali Spektor 1? Thanks!

 

[MZKM]

All measurements are reference to tweeter axis with the grill removed.

I wonder how much of an impact on the treble it would have (usually <2dB).
BTW, it’s “grille” not “grill”.

 

[Deleted member 12179]

Love the conclusion. I wonder if at least more expensive klipsch are better. They surely are, at least a bit, I hope.

 

[twofires]

The people who incorrectly think everyone's taste in speakers is different can perhaps explain why some people may want every note around 1 kHz in their music to be exaggerated.

Mid to upper range of electric guitar, might be a clue, if it's intentional. I've certainly found that I like the RP-600Ms with indie rock. Probably not ideal for other things.

Sigh. I'll continue to patiently await tee off panther sitting atop a good pair of passives. Maybe Dynaudio?

 

[Darkweb]

Really surprised to see snobby audiophools bash a $100 speaker for not being linear enough for them.

As if the target market for these is some crusty old boomer asking his wife to come in and see if these are peaky at 1khz during his favorite violin concerto.

A better test for these speakers would be to pair them with a sub in a dorm room and crank them up, then dump a beer on them and knock them off the shelf.

If they still work the next morning they get a thumbs up.

 

[restorer-john]

Response dips dangerously close to a short at 300 Hz or so.

Looks to be about 3 ohms minimum if your scale is correct. What does Klipsch rate them at? That rear panel sticker is hard to read in your photo, but it looks like 8ohms.

They also say the cone is "spun copper IMG" IMG is injection molded graphite (Infinity did a lot of IMG speakers at one point). So the "spun copper" is what, just the colour?

 

[twofires]

A better test for these speakers would be to pair them with a sub in a dorm room and crank them up, then dump a beer on them and knock them off the shelf.

If they still work the next morning they get a thumbs up.

Hahahaha.

I mean, it's fair enough to want to know what the frequency response is, but it does sometimes lead to excessive angst. "I liked my speakers, but then I saw some graphs and it turns out I was wrong".

 

[restorer-john]

Really surprised to see snobby audiophools bash a $100 speaker for not being linear enough for them.

As if the target market for these is some crusty old boomer asking his wife to come in and see if these are peaky at 1khz during his favorite violin concerto.

A better test for these speakers would be to pair them with a sub in a dorm room and crank them up, then dump a beer on them and knock them off the shelf.

If they still work the next morning they get a thumbs up.

They are essentially a cheap rear surround speaker, complete with a keyhole mount to hang on the wall. Once you hit a 4" "bass" driver, all pretensions to high fidelity go out the window.

 

[amirm]

I trust more in the preference rating than any subjective review so i try to ignore the listening test but if it should have any credibility at all this is very important. Everyone is subject to expectation bias, no amount of training or technical knowledge will cure that.

I have explained this before. Once again, my reason for listening is correlation with measurements and training. And I am conveying that correlation or lack thereof.

 

[twofires]

They are essentially a rear surround speaker, complete with a keyhole mount to hang on the wall. Once you hit a 4" "bass" driver, all pretensions to high fidelity go out the window

That's a good point, actually. I'm probably being exceedingly generous, but the treble might have been boosted expecting the listener to be well below the tweeter.

Reminds me of the Yamaha NS-56 surrounds I have somewhere at home. They sound great up high, but at ear level they'll drill right through you.

 

[amirm]

If Floyde Toole believed the “correct” thinking was everyone’s taste in speakers was the same I’d wipe my ass with his $54 book and demand a refund.

Best to take it to your toilet then. Assuming you ever bothered to buy and read it.