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Kii THREE versus KII THREE/BXT

PierreV

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What are these quote documenting, but a company that uses the same language that you’d expect from a cable peddler.
You and others have criticized @Empirical Audio . Why do you think Grimm (and Keith) deserve special treatment?

There are common aspects and a few differences I think.

On the audibility of benefits for the customers, I think we can all agree that there will be no differences with a better clock or reclocking with decent modern devices. On the performance of the devices, I think the consensus was and is that both devices would most likely perform according to specifications. That's it for the common points.

On the differences: instead of simply stating "my reclocker will improve products with poor clocks and bring them up to modern standard", Steve made at least a dozen ridiculous statements. Grimm doesn't make those statements. I've read their manuals and documents and couldn't find any insane claim in them, they even clearly state that there are many cases where it does not provide any benefits (D to D). Grimm is more astute in that respect by letting reviewers and users do the stupid commenting part :). On top of that, while Steve puts standard stuff together in a competent implementation design aiming at one (relatively simple) problem, one can't deny BP moved the whole field forward in both conceptual and implementation design. Should he come here and make stupid direct comments such as "your system isn't resolving enough", post identical sample files he would not have recognized, etc... I am sure he would enjoy the same response.

That being said, I agree with your opinion on the 20Hz initial claim and the small but big speaker that suddenly became a bigger small speaker...

Disclaimer: I have no links to anyone. The only related piece of gear I own is a pair of NC400 Hypex amplifiers kits I purchased after reading the review. I found them to be good power amplifiers, don't think they perform audibly better or worse than the other equivalent gear I own in most cases, with one exception which is driving speakers that tend to see their impedance go low (around 2.5 Ohms) in the low end of the spectrum.
 

svart-hvitt

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There are common aspects and a few differences I think.

On the audibility of benefits for the customers, I think we can all agree that there will be no differences with a better clock or reclocking with decent modern devices. On the performance of the devices, I think the consensus was and is that both devices would most likely perform according to specifications. That's it for the common points.

On the differences: instead of simply stating "my reclocker will improve products with poor clocks and bring them up to modern standard", Steve made at least a dozen ridiculous statements. Grimm doesn't make those statements. I've read their manuals and documents and couldn't find any insane claim in them, they even clearly state that there are many cases where it does not provide any benefits (D to D). Grimm is more astute in that respect by letting reviewers and users do the stupid commenting part :). On top of that, while Steve puts standard stuff together in a competent implementation design aiming at one (relatively simple) problem, one can't deny BP moved the whole field forward in both conceptual and implementation design. Should he come here and make stupid direct comments such as "your system isn't resolving enough", post identical sample files he would not have recognized, etc... I am sure he would enjoy the same response.

That being said, I agree with your opinion on the 20Hz initial claim and the small but big speaker that suddenly became a bigger small speaker...

Disclaimer: I have no links to anyone. The only related piece of gear I own is a pair of NC400 Hypex amplifiers kits I purchased after reading the review. I found them to be good power amplifiers, don't think they perform audibly better or worse than the other equivalent gear I own in most cases, with one exception which is driving speakers that tend to see their impedance go low (around 2.5 Ohms) in the low end of the spectrum.


Agree! Good points :)

Kii, Grimm and BP are undoubtedly in another league communication wise than @Empirical Audio . A much more intelligent, subtle way of marketing. I meet and face such intelligent, subtle marketing daily - fronted by barefaced PhDs - and I get sick of it. An occupational injury. So please apologize my short fuse when I meet high-level and subtle BS. In a way, I have a longer fuse for cable BS because it’s so obvious that they’re telling fairytales.

:)
 

March Audio

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@Juhazi ,

Kii claimed a world record when stating +/-0.5 dB in frequency response error. Given our insights into physics, we know that such a claim is practically nonsense. ASR is good at pointing out nonsensical claims in the audio world. So I thought this +/-0.5 claim was worthy of a humorous comment. Then Keith started his diversion tactics. @March Audio, whose UK distributor is Keith/Purite Audio, came to rescue Keith.
To be fair I think Keith probably reacted the same way I did internally before I moderated myself for publication.

To put Kii or Bruno Putzeys in the same BS zone as some of the things that have been stated elsewhere recently is patent nonsense.

As I allude to above the frequency response when tested in accordance with the referenced standard may well be what they state and other measurements certainly point to it being pretty damn close.
 
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andreasmaaan

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As I allude to above the frequency response when tested in accordance with the referenced standard may well be what they state and other measurements certainly point to it being pretty damn close.

Moreover, as I think may have come up earlier in this thread, once the measurement conditions are determined, it's not terribly difficult with DSP to create a speaker that has a +/-0.5dB frequency response throughout its operating bandwidth.
 

PierreV

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Moreover, as I think may have come up earlier in this thread, once the measurement conditions are determined, it's not terribly difficult with DSP to create a speaker that has a +/-0.5dB frequency response throughout its operating bandwidth.

Yes, and then putting them in a big random room and going "uh... oh... this thing could use a bit more of everything..."
 

svart-hvitt

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I think you are stretching things a bit here. John Above points out one issue with you POV. The Grimm clocks are clearly designed/intended for studio distribution. Although that could include home use even if of dubious benefit.

To try and imply this is like peddling deceptive nonsense such as silver ethernet cables is a bit ludicrous IMO, especially when you dont know the conditions of measurement - yes those conditions should be stated.

from audio express
View attachment 23794

Just curious; I can’t read this chart. Can you? What does it say?
 

Juhazi

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Zoomed in , horizontal lines have 10dB steps. First vertical on left is 20Hz, on right it's 20kHz
"Flat" is a rather bold statement, but this is a very good response. Distortion/spl capability in low end is where BXT helps. Hump at 1,5kHz is most likely baffle diffraction, it propably smooths out off-axis.

index.php
 

Cosmik

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Moreover, as I think may have come up earlier in this thread, once the measurement conditions are determined, it's not terribly difficult with DSP to create a speaker that has a +/-0.5dB frequency response throughout its operating bandwidth.
Yes, I don't understand the issue. If the microphone isn't moved, the room is very quiet, the temperature and humidity stable, the measurement allowed to integrate for long enough etc., then if the DSP is set up to invert the frequency response of the measurement you can have +/-0.01dB if you want. It would be a rather academic exercise, but not a 'lie'.

I think if a manufacturer says +/-0.5dB they are basically saying: "We control the frequency response with DSP to an arbitrary precision, and could demonstrate it to you to +/-0.5dB in our room with our setup, even if the conditions varied a little. As such, we can show that our speaker is not burdened by arbitrary component tolerances and random variations in the way some other speakers are".

They are not necessarily claiming that your or I would measure the same response with their speaker because we can't duplicate their environment and, well, we're probably not as good at this as they are :)
 

svart-hvitt

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Yes, I don't understand the issue. If the microphone isn't moved, the room is very quiet, the temperature and humidity stable, the measurement allowed to integrate for long enough etc., then if the DSP is set up to invert the frequency response of the measurement you can have +/-0.01dB if you want. It would be a rather academic exercise, but not a 'lie'.

I think if a manufacturer says +/-0.5dB they are basically saying: "We control the frequency response with DSP to an arbitrary precision, and could demonstrate it to you to +/-0.5dB in our room with our setup, even if the conditions varied a little. As such, we can show that our speaker is not burdened by component tolerances and so on in the way some other speakers are".

In theory, you can control things with DSP. In reality you have discrepancies from theory. Crossovers, for example, may yield discrepancies from the flat line. Many DSP speakers have frequency response errors of 2 and 3 dB.

My point is proven by the chart above, from Audioxpress. In that chart, based on anechoic measurements, Kii has a FR error of about 2-3 dB (we don’t know what the attempted SPL is, so a middle line perspective gives you a best case in terms of FR error). It all points to the suspicion that Kii was thought out, researched and developed, on paper, in the computer. Specs are from computer simulations, not costly (time and expense) anechoic measurements. Listening tests by trained listeners were probably not carried out either. So they probably thought a small speaker could sound big. Only to introduce the bigger better triple BXT version a couple of years later. Cabinet resonance will never disappear, however.

You have listened to the Kiis yourself, right? And they sounded “fake” or not right? Do you believe your own ears?
 

FrantzM

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splitting hair aren't we people!!!!

Let's compare much different results from much different sources and likely measurements techniques and protocols and environment and ... <fill the blank> with an Audiophile Darlings costing a bit more .. and being only a pair of spekaers requiring and audiophile-type expense on cables, preamplifier, speaker cables, interconnect cables, audiophile-approved power cableS (several), of course Nordost viration-control, DAC, re-clocker, audiophile-approved USB cable, am I missing anything?
:D

1552991580220.png

Perhaps a bit of DSP would have corrected the response , the directivity however is another issue ...

So the Kii people can gloat a bit. Wisdom will have them tone down the rethorics. They have themselves proven with the BXT, that there is NO substitute for displacement. The people at Dutch and Dutch are quietly inching toward sub integration they talk about in their next firmware (on this I could be wrong .... not an owner... yet ? ;) )

The graph above is from Soundstage, apologies if this is not allowed under the TOS .... and it is from Wilson Audio Sophia 2 ( i could not murmur online ) :p

Kii response

1552992100511.png
 

March Audio

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In theory, you can control things with DSP. In reality you have discrepancies from theory. Crossovers, for example, may yield discrepancies from the flat line. Many DSP speakers have frequency response errors of 2 and 3 dB.

My point is proven by the chart above, from Audioxpress. In that chart, based on anechoic measurements, Kii has a FR error of about 2-3 dB (we don’t know what the attempted SPL is, so a middle line perspective gives you a best case in terms of FR error). It all points to the suspicion that Kii was thought out, researched and developed, on paper, in the computer. Specs are from computer simulations, not costly (time and expense) anechoic measurements. Listening tests by trained listeners were probably not carried out either. So they probably thought a small speaker could sound big. Only to introduce the bigger better triple BXT version a couple of years later. Cabinet resonance will never disappear, however.

You have listened to the Kiis yourself, right? And they sounded “fake” or not right? Do you believe your own ears?

OMG this is ridiculous. You havent proven anything. Did you read the bit about the measurement standard?

Just to demonstrate. Same speaker measurement. This is in room so ignore the slope after 1kHz and the issue I had with under 30Hz (although it demonstrates clearly how variations are smoothed out with psychoacoustic (ERB) type of corrections.)

No smoothing:
30dB variation

1552993708841.png


1/12 octave 8dB
1552993805280.png



Psycho 4dB
1552993998673.png



ERB 3dB
1552993937193.png


Psycho and ERB are possibly most representative of how we perceive.


It points to no such thing. Your speculation has no basis and I am not sure you realise how you are coming across.

Whatever your clear beef is with Kii, I see little justification.

My guess is that whilst they could correct the low frequency response to the limits they initially claimed, they subsequently realised that this equalisation would possibly over tax the drivers/amps and lead to too high distortion.

To liken this to the BS we have seen elsewhere is daft.
 
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March Audio

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Yes, I don't understand the issue. If the microphone isn't moved, the room is very quiet, the temperature and humidity stable, the measurement allowed to integrate for long enough etc., then if the DSP is set up to invert the frequency response of the measurement you can have +/-0.01dB if you want. It would be a rather academic exercise, but not a 'lie'.

I think if a manufacturer says +/-0.5dB they are basically saying: "We control the frequency response with DSP to an arbitrary precision, and could demonstrate it to you to +/-0.5dB in our room with our setup, even if the conditions varied a little. As such, we can show that our speaker is not burdened by arbitrary component tolerances and random variations in the way some other speakers are".

They are not necessarily claiming that your or I would measure the same response with their speaker because we can't duplicate their environment and, well, we're probably not as good at this as they are :)

Precisely this.
 

Cosmik

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Crossovers, for example, may yield discrepancies from the flat line. Many DSP speakers have frequency response errors of 2 and 3 dB.
But not if that measurement is used as feedback to tweak the EQ and the measurement repeated without changing anything else. You can then have zero error. It may only be an academic exercise because if you move the mic 10mm or use a different output volume, maybe the error goes up again.
You have listened to the Kiis yourself, right? And they sounded “fake” or not right? Do you believe your own ears?
I am only commenting on the principle of a certain measurement. In fact my view is that measurements of speakers are often misleading because it is a many-dimensioned problem being represented with an oversimplification and which may be better represented by a computer simulation.

My experience with the Kiis was spoiled, I think, by being careless about their placement next to other objects and that this upset the cardioid cancellation mechanism. As yet, I am not as blown away by them as I had hoped.
 

svart-hvitt

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FWIW,

two relative anechoic measurements in the chart below.

The one line is Audioxpress’s anechoic measurement of Kii, which is used to laud the Kii. The other line is (green) from another speaker’s anechoic measurements whose stated frequency response error is +/-1 dB. The lines are overlaid to give an impression of relative frequency response errors.

For some reason, many people talk about how flat and smooth the Kiis are. Flat and smooth relative to what?

Please note that Kii claimed a much lower frequency response too than the other speaker in this figure.

In this perspective it’s evident that the Kiis have a long way to go to document class-leading smoothness in its frequency response.

It’s with this in mind I read the Kii specs as a way of lying, bullshitting people who are measurement oriented. We know that some people buy gear based on class-leading measurements (alone?), so there is commercial reason to window-dress your specifications.

FDADFD94-DE47-4333-A70C-16359A62166D.jpeg
 
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svart-hvitt

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I dont think you have understood or wish to take on board the previous few posts. Either way its a pointless exercise to discuss further.

I may have not understood. So please elaborate.

The two lines look very different to me, even if you control for different smoothings.
 

svart-hvitt

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SOME BACKGROUND ON MEASUREMENTS, MARKETING AND THE GULLIBLE OBJECTIVE CROWD

“It's all about the idea of having the best ;) Hah.”

The quote above is from a review of the measurement wise excellent Okto Research 8 channel DAC. I think everyone understands what’s behind that quote: It’s all about having the best!

Audiophiles have different needs. Some like the looks, some look inside. For those who look inside, measurements are important. I will focus here on the “objective”, “rational” crowd.

I think the quote above can be used to cast light over some of my previous posts. To understand some of the issues in audio, you obviously need an understanding of audio - but you also need to understand marketing and its workings. People who are strong in audio may take technological insights for granted and may evaluate a company and its lead people on technological merits alone, forgetting that marketing is at play too and may take the leading role in a company’s mode of operation. While my audio science background is non-existing, I understand marketing - especially towards an “objective” crowd.

People will have noticed that I have been irritated by the marketing of firms like Kii and Grimm. In the initial marketing of Kii, it was said to be a “small big speaker”. To document their claim, a frequency response (FR) and FR error were stated as 20 Hz-20kHz, +/-0.5 dB.

To understand what was at play here, I will draw upon two sources:

1) A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part I - Listening Test Results, Olive (2004)
A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model, Olive (2004)

2) The Subjective Loudness of Typical Program Material, Soulodre et al. (2003)

From the first source, Olive (2004), often quoted in Toole’s book, the reader learns that bass accounts for ca. 31 percent of perceived sound quality. Any marketeer understands that bass is imperative to sales, and profits if bass doesn’t drive costs.

The second source, Soulodre et al. (2003) confirms the common wisdom that sound level differences below ca. 0.5 dB are inaudible in music material (see figure below). So any artefacts from the flat smooth curve that are less than 0.5 dB are inaudible, i.e. a speaker curve that has a FR curve error below 0.5 dB must be deemed as neutral as it gets.

38747109-F6DE-431E-8765-239F84B44A42.jpeg


If a sales organization can play on both bass (cheap in terms of space and cost) and world record neutrality in a one-liner like 20Hz-20kHz (+/-0.5 dB), it will draw a large crowd of interested «objective», «rational» people. “It’s all about the idea of having the best”, right?

I think people of technical insight sometimes have difficulty understanding this line of reasoning (or they pretend they don’t understand except when they start their own venture), because technical people understand that there’s more to it than just a one-liner containing the FR and FR error. But for a marketing oriented mind pursuing sales and profits it makes a huge difference if you can formulate the rational, objective audiophile’s dream in one single line.

Kii’s initial marketing was based on “small big speaker” and a one-liner like 20Hz-20kHz (+/-0.25dB), thus fulfilling the “objective”, “rational” audiophile’s dream. Without any notice, 20Hz was changed to 30Hz. That’s a huge change, isn’t it? Remember, Kii Three is a 32 litres box. It normally takes in excess of 30 litres to produce adequate bass quality alone down to 20 Hz, right? Then came the BXT module, which tripled the size of Kii Three and more than doubled the price. Despite the sudden “loss” of bass capacity from the original Kii Three marketing brochure, and the tripling of size and more than doubling of price, people still defend “the small big speaker” and the Kii people.

The other part of the dream, Kii Three’s amazingly low FR error - a world record, mind you - always looked fishy to competent people. First, just the aborption of higher frequencies from 20 to 25 kHz makes it impossible to achieve such a low FR error if you don’t manipulate, i.e. colour, the initial output to score higher (lower FR error) on anechoic FR measurements. But this is a highly pedantic exercise, to take into account absorption in normal air in a near or mid-field situation.

A more interesting part of this story is the fact that Kii never documented their bass capacity or their neutral frequency response as stated in brochures. And external parties have NEVER been able to reproduce Kiis claims. Here are some measurement oriented comments from reviewers:

«Its forward frequency response, measured at 1 m on the tweeter axis [Graph 1, below], provides some evidence of this. lt is, to within tight limits, flat, the response errors being +/-2.1 dB for both speakers, 300H2-20kHz (...) This isn't quite the +/-0.5dB that Kii Audio claims but it's remarkable nonetheless».
Source: https://www.kiiaudio.com/media/GENERAL/docs/reviews/kii3hfn818lowrez.pdf

«As may be expected from a DSP-enabled loudspeaker, the Kii Three’s frequency response curve is relatively flat, running from about 30 Hz to slightly above 20 kHz with minor deviations (see Figure 1). Most visible are a slight bump around 1,500 Hz and a depression at 12.5 kHz. According to Putzeys, these are due to component variations, which are not taken care of by the DSP correction. This might be the case to some extent, but there also seems to be some energy storage issues at play, since the same irregularities show up in the cumulative decay plots (see Figure 2)».
Source: https://www.kiiaudio.com/media/GENERAL/docs/reviews/audioxpress012017low.pdf

The first source reproduces FR error which is 4 times the stated one in Kii brochures.

The second source, from which I copied the FR in a chart to compare it to another speaker, tells the reader about a «relatively flat» FR curve, not a world record.

In other words: When external parties tried to reproduce Kii’s claims, the FR error quadrupled. I guess the marketeers behind Kii always thought +/-0.5dB would sell more speakers than +/-2dB. What do you think?

My background may make me somewhat biased. I think I intuitively look more on the marketing side of things than the pure technical issues than some other members. I try and understand the technical issues too, but I have much more experience exposing and understanding marketing and its derivative, pure bullshit.

I don’t think it’s an accident that these marketing issues arise in Kii. Bruno Putzeys, the mastermind behind Kii Three (he is undoubtedly competent and clever), is associated with Grimm Audio, the audophile company that sells clocks and overpriced streamers. This is what Grimm states on their web site in MU1, a €10k streamer;

«We had the desire to develop the most accurate audio source of our imagination. In our experience the human hearing system shows an incredible sensitivity to anomalies. Even unimaginably small abberations appear to be audible. In principle digital audio does offer perfect reproduction. Its sonic quality however is limited by the implementation accuracy of the physical and mathematical laws that affect the conversion from one format to another. Grimm Audio strives to bring you confidence that all technical details are taken care of to the greatest extend. As a result the reproduction system steps out of the way of the music (...) Needless to say that the MU1 features our trademark ultra low jitter clock. This is a music player worthy of the name Grimm Audio».
Source: http://www.grimmaudio.com/hifi-products/music-players/mu1/

Putzey’s Mola Mola venture, that produces €10k DACs with unmeasurably high specifications («THD, IMD: not measurable (estimated -150 dB)»), says:

«You probably know the frustration of discovering your DAC has suddenly gone out of date because some new super chip has hit the market. We decided to stay out of that cycle and design, from the ground up, a discrete DAC whose unbeatable staying power results simply from being more than 10 years ahead of the performance curve. There's room enough for improvement: today’s best DAC chip claims no better than 22 bits’ worth of dynamic range and only 20 bits’ worth of linearity. High resolution music deserves better than that. Mola-Mola’s DAC is designed from the ground up using circuits and digital algorithms that were entirely developed in house».

So it seems like marketing is in the blood of the people behind Kii. And it’s this marketing bias that deserves a closer look by ASR members, isn’t it?
 
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