Kii THREE versus KII THREE/BXT

[Juhazi]

I don't have Kiis, but use Minidsp 2x4HD and 4x10HD units, all with analog in/out. I can't measure or hear any degradation of sound with them. I dont have experience with FIR-capable units.
review of 4x10HD https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
review of 2x4HD https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-and-minidsp-2x4-hd-dsp-and-dac.2674/

My 4x10HD works as xo for two 4-way speakers. It gets some noise from rather long RCA cables, but worst is the noise form my present AV-receiver Denon, the previous Yamaha was much more silent. I guess that I should try TOSLINK some day...

Two 2x4HD are as xo for 3-way speakers with no noise problems so far.

One 2x4HD works as xo-eq unit between a tube-preamplifier and a power-amp and a Hypex DS2.0 subwoofer amp. It gets L/R analog signal and I routed a summed mono, low-passed and eq'd signal to a single SW-amp board. Main channels are set to make delay, high-pass and eq. No issues with hum or noise and integration with acoustic LR2 slopes sounds fantastic!

It is very important to take acoustic measurements for setup. I make settings manually, without help from REW.

One option is to buy http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-x4.shtml with automatic settings, price 4000€/$

 

[Absolute]

Which miniDSP device do you use with the Kii Threes? Any decrease in SQ with this device in the signal path? I am wanting to integrate a couple of subs but could not find a solution to the Kii 90ms DSP delay.

I use minidsp 4x10hd because it gives you two digital outputs (AES/IBU) to the Kiis. This unit will only delay up to 15 ms for analogue outputs and 8 ms for digital outputs, so you need to disable the exact mode on Kii. But since the Control gives you complete control over delay in the Kiis, good integration is totally possible. Sometimes you need from 10-30 ms of delay on the fronts to integrate well with distributed subs, so I'd say all minidsp's are flawed in this area.

Some say the timing below the Schroeder frequency isn't important due to the amount of time it takes before we even register low frequencies, people like Geddes, Toole and Welti, but I'd say it depends. I could be wrong because I haven't ruled out other factors from the audible differences I experienced.

So, can I hear a sound degradation with the Minidsp in the chain? I think I can due to some faint noise while no signal is played, but going back and forth with and without minidsp I'm not sure. I think I can hear a somewhat smoother sound when I activate the exact mode on Kii, at least when close, but how many times have I thought one or the other setting was playing and been wrong? Plenty.

While I don't think minidsp 4x10hd is completely transparent, I do think you need very good acoustics to hear it. Even when I'm trying to hear it, I'm not sure I actually do, so at what point will good enough become good enough for you?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

One option is to buy http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-x4.shtml with automatic settings, price 4000€/$

Reviewed here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-97-hegel-c53-dspeaker-anti-mode-x4-page-2

 

[Juhazi]

Max delay with minidsp
4x10HD is 9ms http://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/miniDSP 4x10 Hd and 2x8 kit User Manual.pdf
2x4HD is 80ms https://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/miniDSP 2x4 HD User Manual.pdf

 

[firedog]

Speakers 8%, BXT 13%,control 5%.
Keith

Aren't they going to price themselves out of the market at some point? They are already expensive systems.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes.. but for example a Kii/BXT just replaced a customers big Wilsons /reference Audio Research amps, dac, etc etc.
The old system retailed for what four times the cost of the Kii combination.
I haven’t a passive system better than the Kii/BXT at any price, have you?
Keith

 

[firedog]

Yes.. but for example a Kii/BXT just replaced a customers big Wilsons /reference Audio Research amps, dac, etc etc.
The old system retailed for what four times the cost of the Kii combination.
I haven’t a passive system better than the Kii/BXT at any price, have you?
Keith

Okay, that makes sense.
But for just a pair of Kii 3, I think they are getting close to the point where people trying to buy into audio equipment at 15-20K level will start to ponder if a Kii speaker, stands, and controller are still such a value. As the price creeps up, alternatives start to look better: still not 2 boxes (3 with controller) but choice of speakers and DSP through software or something like DEQX. Separates of more conventional equipment are more versatile, easier to upgrade, and I'd imagine are easier to sell second hand.
One of the selling points of the Kii originally was that it was very cost effective in terms of performance vs. more conventional solutions giving similar performance. That edge is getting whittled away.

 

[Absolute]

So, I've been auditioning the BXT a few times now, the last session was 1 hour + of my own music with the ability to turn on and off BXT and adjusting volume freely.
It turns up the heat quite effectively, so to say. More focused punch and snap, as expected. Does it change the character of the Kiis? No, it just adds to the experience.
It's actually quite shocking to turn off the BXT and hear the capability of the Kiis alone because they perform excellent on their own.
Same sound, just softer and less snappy. Less involving, yes, but I can also understand that some people could possibly like them better without BXT.

Me? I love the BXT and what it brings to the table, but at normal listening volumes there's no way to justify the silly pricetag.

I'm buying big subwoofers instead, but I'm not rich...

 

[SoundsGood]

Let us know how the sub integration goes. I am in the same boat - would love to add the BXT but the price is prohibitive. Would like to know how you get the subs in time with the Kiis.

 

[Absolute]

So, I've been trying out Audiolense with my Kii Three's these last few days. We've yet to see any measurements that show what the BXT brings to the table, but perhaps some people are interested in the bass capabilites of the Kii Three itself.

Here is a graph from my left speaker, measured from approx. 10 feet/3,5 meters. I made a bass-heavy target in Audiolense to not kill my ears.

That's a 9,23% distortion at 20 hz. Take notice of that distortion spike in the area from 150-300 hz. That is because the dsp compensates the floor dip I get in that area. It looks like this without Audiolense or any EQ;

There's no problem reaching 20 hz in a smaller room with Kii Three alone at sane volume levels, but you get distortions and a somewhat softer sound than you do with subwoofers. Of course, if both play at the same time, the headroom goes considerably up;

 

[Juhazi]

70-80 dB at 3,5 meters is way too low spl to look at distortion. Have you checked your ambient noise curve?
If you want to see the distortion of the speaker itself, measure it at 1m 95-100dB.
You should not even try to eq sharp high-Q "dips" in response, they come from nulling of direct/reflected wavefronts.

 

[Krunok]

70-80 dB at 3,5 meters is way too low spl to look at distortion. Have you checked your ambient noise curve?

80dB at 3.5m equals to 90dB at 1m which is exactly the SPL at which for example SoundStage is measuring THD.

You should not even try to eq sharp high-Q "dips" in response, they come from nulling of direct/reflected wavefronts.

Why not? Most of them can be compensated with up to 12dB correction and even if they couldn't they are not as deep as they were.

Besides, Audiolense is an automated EQ system so it's not like it lets you choose what to correct and what not.

 

[Soniclife]

equals to 90dB at 1m which is exactly the SPL at which for example SoundStage is measuring THD.

They measure at 2m, 90db, quite a high setting.

 

[Krunok]

They measure at 2m, 90db, quite a high setting.

Ops.. I thought it was 1m.

 

[Soniclife]

Ops.. I thought it was 1m.

I got it wrong in the past, the same way, but it's properly detailed just above the graph, so we have no excuse .

 

[Krunok]

I got it wrong in the past, the same way, but it's properly detailed just above the graph, so we have no excuse .

How about this - my wife went to a seaside with her friends for 5 days leaving me to cook for 2 hungry teenagers, so yeah, I think I have excuse!

 

[Juhazi]

Distortion % might be same with different distance/ relative spl, but S/N ratio gets better in nearfield! Typically midrange distortion is masked by noise in home-brewed measurements.

My dipoles as example,measurements at 3m indoor

 

[Krunok]

Distortion % might be same with different distance/ relative spl, but S/N ratio gets better in nearfield! Typically midrange distortion is masked by noise in home-brewed measurements.

My dipoles as example,measurements at 3m indoor
View attachment 31400

That wide 10dB peak at 75Hz looks much more problematic than THD figures.

 

[Juhazi]

75Hz peak - That's a room mode sum, notice that distortion is smooth below it! In this measurement the speaker and mic were not at normal listening positions, setup was diagonally in the middle of the room.

In my room ambient noise is around 30dB in mid frequencies, but some 50dB at 20Hz! I was in a hurry and didn't find a measurement of that.

 

[Krunok]

75Hz peak - That's a room mode sum, notice that distortion is smooth below it! In this measurement the speaker and mic were not at normal listening positions, setup was diagonally in the middle of the room.

In my room ambient noise is around 30dB in mid frequencies, but some 50dB at 20Hz! I was in a hurry and didn't find a measurement of that.

I can see what it is, I'm just saying that peak is definitely hearable. Don't you use room EQ?