Kii THREE versus Dutch&Dutch 8C

[oivavoi]

I'm not a technical expert at all when it comes to how transducers work. But to me it just seems very inuitive: Bass waves are long and big. Very big. How can we expect them to sound natural when they need to come out of a very small cone?

Having said that, my own subwoofer has just 2 x 8-inch woofers. That's because of space and waf requirements. It sounds pretty decent. But I'm under no illusions as to the limitatations of that.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

How long does a 30hz wave take to fully form distance wise?

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith,
Thanks for posting this. Have you ever considered using REW? You've posted a screenshot from DIRAC. DIRAC windows this measurements in preparation for an inverse filter. So it's really meant to show how DIRAC's filters are derived. A REW plot can be much more standardized and better understood.

Across both measurements, it's clear you have a nasty mode at 38hz. IME, there's no room treatment which has ANY effect on such a mode. Moreover, the kii audio cardoid response is only good down to 80hz. I bet I could totally eliminate that mode with 2 subs, a MCH DAC/ADC and Acourate. You'd finally hear what good bass flat to 20hz sounds like.

Please desist from posting in any more of my threads, thanks.
Keith

 

[RayDunzl]

How long does a 30hz wave take to fully form distance wise?

speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m / s

So, 30Hz wavelength = 11.343 m or 37.2 feet

 

[oivavoi]

How long does a 30hz wave take to fully form distance wise?

According to this article, 50 hz is 48 feet/14 m. 20 hz is 59 feet/18 m. Doesn't give the numbers for 30 hz, but between there somewhere I guess.
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb021999.htm

 

[Purité Audio]

There is an interesting Kii Three thread on ' Gearslutz' mastering guys instantly 'get' the Kii's because for the most part they work in acoustically neutral rooms.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1048540-kii-three-have-you-heard-them-15.html#post12419934


Keith

 

[oivavoi]

I will probably get to hear the Kiis next week. Really looking forward to that!

 

[Dynamix]

Please desist from posting in any more of my threads, thanks.
Keith

Please get over yourself, thanks.

 

[Sal1950]

Please get over yourself, thanks.

I'll second that emotion.

 

[FrantzM]

Multiple subs can't represent spatial information.
Keith

Huh!! ???As opposed to?

 

[FrantzM]

It is true that a small membrane with the proper excursion can produce bass .. The issue becomes how to retain pistonic motion during the (long) excursion. It can be shown ( I'll spare you the math) that the impulse response of a speaker is not dependent of its mass ( within reason).. So the same DSP and linearization artifices will yield even better results with a large membrane .. All that to say that bass is displacement and nothing displaces better than a large membrane. 93 dB at 20 Hz of Max SPL looks nice (somewhat.... and on paper) but if you were to look at an equal loudness contour

you would quickly see that 93 dB is not great shake (pun intended) .
All that to say that the Kii is a valid solution and at (relative to High End Audio) a great price . It is a system not a speaker you get the DAC , amp and speakers in one relatively cute package and that is commendable. It is not a world beater. The JBL M2 OTOH could well be

 

[Liberal Democracy]

I encourage objective discussion, the presentation of respected theory and actual verifiable data like response graphs etc in all parts of the forum and indeed all our members are welcome to participate.

There has been a little to much in the way of unpleasant personal jibes in this thread, it does not read well.

It's Keith's thread but any and everything posted at ASR is avalible for objective challenge and Scrutinizing, it's why we are here.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

There is an interesting Kii Three thread on ' Gearslutz' mastering guys instantly 'get' the Kii's because for the most part they work in acoustically neutral rooms.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1048540-kii-three-have-you-heard-them-15.html#post12419934


Keith

Keith,

Pure subjective 'review ' means nothing here, if something sounds 'good' we like to investigate why and if indeed it really is as 'good' as claimed.

It's hard for members to accept the idea that subjective review means nothing until the review is positive and your selling the product in question.. Then all objectivity and Scrutinizing is invalid .. That's how many of these product threads of yours seem to come across.

So rather than petulance and condescension ( that's how some of your replies read whether intentionally or not) please engage in a worthwhile debate, explaining your ideas in keeping with the debating practices of the forum. Practices you often champion when critiquing other members contributions.

What we should now have is all the excellent products you offer being throughly explored and explained in your product threads. Their merits then shining though, rather than what we now have. So please bring the technical data and be prepared to discuss the real merits ( of which there are many) of the products you sell. Pure cheerleading and personal insults when folks don't agree is not doing any of us any favours .

I'm a big fan of what your doing and the direction you have taken with your choices of stock

Cheers ...

A word to the wise , some of our members are actually deeply knowledgeable in regard to DSP and audio engineering in general. They may not chose to shout their qualifications out but don't assume everyone of us are as bone numbingly dense as me..

 

[Purité Audio]

It is true that a small membrane with the proper excursion can produce bass .. The issue becomes how to retain pistonic motion during the (long) excursion. It can be shown ( I'll spare you the math) that the impulse response of a speaker is not dependent of its mass ( within reason).. So the same DSP and linearization artifices will yield even better results with a large membrane .. All that to say that bass is displacement and nothing displaces better than a large membrane. 93 dB at 20 Hz of Max SPL looks nice (somewhat.... and on paper) but if you were to look at an equal loudness contour

you would quickly see that 93 dB is not great shake (pun intended) .
All that to say that the Kii is a valid solution and at (relative to High End Audio) a great price . It is a system not a speaker you get the DAC , amp and speakers in one relatively cute package and that is commendable. It is not a world beater. The JBL M2 OTOH could well be

I have heard the M2 and the passive version, please explain what is 'world-beating about it?
Or are you just cheering on the U.S.A?
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith,

Pure subjective 'review ' means nothing here, if something sounds 'good' we like to investigate why and if indeed it really is as 'good' as claimed.

It's hard for members to accept the idea that subjective review means nothing until the review is positive and your selling the product in question.. Then all objectivity and Scrutinizing is invalid .. That's how many of these product threads of yours seem to come across.

So rather than petulance and condescension ( that's how some of your replies read whether intentionally or not) please engage in a worthwhile debate, explaining your ideas in keeping with the debating practices of the forum. Practices you often champion when critiquing other members contributions.

What we should now have is all the excellent products you offer being throughly explored and explained in your product threads. Their merits then shining though, rather than what we now have. So please bring the technical data and be prepared to discuss the real merits ( of which there are many) of the products you sell. Pure cheerleading and personal insults when folks don't agree is not doing any of us any favours .

I'm a big fan of what your doing and the direction you have taken with your choices of stock

Cheers ...

A word to the wise , some of our members are actually deeply knowledgeable in regard to DSP and audio engineering in general. They may not chose to shout their qualifications out but don't assume everyone of us are as bone numbingly dense as me..

Yes you are right of course, what do those guys know, they only are the music you listen to.
I bet there work would sound so much better if it had been mastered on a pair of 'audiophile' speakers with the amps 'upgraded' by an ex car salesman.
Keith

 

[Liberal Democracy]

Yes you are right of course, what do those guys know, they only are the music you listen to.
I bet there work would sound so much better if it had been mastered on a pair of 'audiophile' speakers with the amps 'upgraded' by an ex car salesman.
Keith

ah, another personal jibe... Disappointing and unfortunately rather predictable

 

[Purité Audio]

I find your continual requests for objective data rather hypocritical from one who has drunk so deeply of the 'kool aid' lets see some measurements from the Giyas, if you can get them to work long enough to take a measurement.
Keith

 

[Liberal Democracy]

I find your continual requests for objective data rather hypocritical from one who has drunk so deeply of the 'kool aid' lets see some measurements from the Giyas, if you can get them to work long enough to take a measurement.
Keith

I'm here representing the forum, our members and the values built here. ( as moderator)

Iv made no claims about the equipment Iv use on this forum that would require me to post supporting measurments , the vivid giya measurments are avalible from vivid and indeed I believe they have been reviewed by sterophile magazine ( product of the year and the sterophile measurments are also widely avalible)

I have posted some of the measurments of my amplifiers ( possibly in my system thread that's now deleted) they do measure well for what it's worth.

You need to look past judgement of me personally and concentrate on the standards of debate at ASR . It's not about me, things Iv done in the past or products Iv bought and from whom. However on that subject you might be surprised at the qualifications of some ex car salesman..

Iv no intrest in countering your personal insults in kind, I also have no intrest in reading posts insulting or attempting to restrict the postings of our members .

I actually like what your trying to do, it's a real shame you meet that enthusiasm in the way you have chosen to do so here.

I'm not the topic for discussion Keith, your products are and be prepared for them to be scrutinised in keeping with the philosophy of our forum..

 

[Purité Audio]

It is a pity you feel you can't contribute to a robust conversation, denigrating a salesman is easy isn't it?
I understand that, a soft target, but you know , or at least I hope you do that I am not a regular 'box shifter' the Kii's and Beolabs are genuinely good , innovative designs .
For me I find it rather a shame that some members can't seem to overcome their long held prejudices to recognise that.
Keith

 

[Liberal Democracy]

It is a pity you feel you can't contribute to a robust conversation, denigrating a salesman is easy isn't it?
I understand that, a soft target, but you know , or at least I hope you do that I am not a regular 'box shifter' the Kii's and Beolabs are genuinely good , innovative designs .
For me I find it rather a shame that some members can't seem to overcome their long held prejudices to recognise that.
Keith

Like Iv said continually, I like what your doing and the choices of what to stock you have made. I'm ok with robust conversation but it must contain more that just insults but yet again it's not about me. ( the little insult in your above post though thinly veiled does not escape attention)

As far as I'm aware the whole forum is in favour of progress and in particular active speakers combined with dsp..
Also as far as I'm aware no members have contradicted any claims the designer/manufacture of kii have made

Please , stick to the products ( not insulting me or any others) and be prepared for 'claims' to be scrutinised by the membership. Hopefully their scrutiny will enhance the understanding of the design ( in a way advantageous to you )

Thanks for you understanding, we all love progress ( I'm particularly keen on personal progress and learning from mistakes ) .

My next speaker won't be passive and will utilise dsp..

Back to the topic at hand, kii three vs the new kid on the block Dutch and Dutch offering..
( please let's all move on to more constructive discussion, Keith is a respected member here too)