Kii THREE Review

[hardisj]

Ummmmm does that mean you can blow it up or are the amps not powerful enough to do that? Haha. Unless he just means no stealth limiter and the speakers go into protection if overdriven or something like that, which would be similar to Neumann/Genelec.

I actually find it a bit strange how common stealth limiters are in studio monitors since, if I were mixing, I would really really dislike the idea that the FR could change that severely without the monitor telling me it hit a limit.

Thanks so much for the additional data!!!! Very much appreciated. It does look like the Kii3 bass limit before the 8C do.

His words were something to the effect of "we let the customer determine the limit" with the logic that a person paying this much for a speaker won't let it run on the ragged edge of mechanical failure and with be sensible. I've had a lot of speakers over the years and never blown one by pushing it too hard (unless I was testing it or an accident occurred).

But we can let @Martijn Mensink clear up any confusion should I have paraphrased incorrectly.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Passive speakers don't have limiters, so it's not like they're somehow essential.

 

[Sancus]

Passive speakers don't have limiters, so it's not like they're somehow essential.

I agree they're not essential, I was just curious since I've never heard of an active speaker with no limiter at all. Even the cheapest ones usually have some kind of basic protection circuit.

 

[Absolute]

I, for one, am of the opinion that limiters should definitely be included in active speakers. Especially small full-range ones where you definitely are going to demand more than what they are capable of at some point.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I agree they're not essential, I was just curious since I've never heard of an active speaker with no limiter at all. Even the cheapest ones usually have some kind of basic protection circuit.

I do like the idea of having limiters actually. I guess it's possible with active speakers whereas it isn't with passive speakers, so with actives it becomes more an case of why wouldn't you?

 

[hardisj]

I dunno... I did just fine at 4 meters distance without having a limiter. I think it's a good safety net for someone who doesn't pay attention but I don't think it's necessary. I can see the case for it either way but I don't consider it a "must have" by any means. I think we are used to seeing it with more mainstream manufacturers because they want to keep their warranty claims low and if joe-blow buys a set of $130 monitors on Amazon he's pretty likely to pop those quickly. Whereas someone spending $12k+ on a set of speakers?.... I'd imagine much less likely.

But, again, the manufacturer can provide their rationale. After all, it is their butt on the line if a problem occurs due to lack of built-in limiter and they obviously don't seem to have an issue otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation about them not using one at all.

 

[Sancus]

I do like the idea of having limiters actually. I guess it's possible with active speakers whereas it isn't with passive speakers, so with actives it becomes more an case of why wouldn't you?

Yeah I think limiters that tell you when they engage(eg the status light on Genelec/Neumann speakers) are great and all actives should have them. The ones that just silently engage with no indication and change the frequency response are the ones I dislike. But it's still probably better to have 'em than not...

I think it's a good safety net for someone who doesn't pay attention but I don't think it's necessary.

One reason I like them is that it makes it very easy to find/check the limit of the speaker in your room with absolute no worries or risk. Whereas I'd honestly be scared to run those kind of tests on a passive speaker or active with no limiter. Not that running SPL tests is a normal user thing, or anything, that's for sure.

 

[BoredErica]

Yeah I think limiters that tell you when they engage(eg the status light on Genelec/Neumann speakers) are great and all actives should have them. The ones that just silently engage with no indication and change the frequency response are the ones I dislike. But it's still probably better to have 'em than not...

I'd prefer the light go on the back. If the indicator was on the front I find that ugly, even if it doesn't light up when no problem occurs. Of course, it makes it harder to see. KH80's light is too bright and I don't want more lights from so many devices showing up everywhere in my room.

 

[Sancus]

I'd prefer the light go on the back. If the indicator was on the front I find that ugly, even if it doesn't light up when no problem occurs. Of course, it makes it harder to see. KH80's light is too bright and I don't want more lights from so many devices showing up everywhere in my room.

You can turn the LEDs off on most Neumanns and GLM Genelecs. Unfortunately the KH80 requires an iPad to do that which is really stupid IMO. But other than that it's fine.

 

[Absolute]

I dunno... I did just fine at 4 meters distance without having a limiter. I think it's a good safety net for someone who doesn't pay attention but I don't think it's necessary. I can see the case for it either way but I don't consider it a "must have" by any means. I think we are used to seeing it with more mainstream manufacturers because they want to keep their warranty claims low and if joe-blow buys a set of $130 monitors on Amazon he's pretty likely to pop those quickly. Whereas someone spending $12k+ on a set of speakers?.... I'd imagine much less likely.

But, again, the manufacturer can provide their rationale. After all, it is their butt on the line if a problem occurs due to lack of built-in limiter and they obviously don't seem to have an issue otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation about them not using one at all.

I look at it from a user's perspective only, so I can't imagine something expensive and fragile like the Kii Three without limiters in place. The compression test you did shows it would explode on itself really quickly without it. 102 dB at 1 meter is not that loud for the low range.

You don't even need to be stupid to do it, you just need to be unlucky with song switches on Spotify for them to go boom.
I can only imagine what would happen if you play something bass-shy like 80's Michael Jackson quite loud with a low-shelf at +3 dB and then switch to something with high dynamic range and huge output at low frequencies, like that 1812 cannon-shit they always go on about in half of all reviews.
That could make for some interesting cannon-fodder scenarios around the living rooms of the world.

Those who have experienced this with the Klipsch Palladium speakers knows it's not particularly fun to be told by the company that replacement drivers costs about the same as the speakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe that the limiters on the Kiis are always ‘on’ but you can choose to turn the LEDs ( they flicker red when limiting) off, I will check though.
Keith

 

[Absolute]

I believe that the limiters on the Kiis are always ‘on’ but you can choose to turn the LEDs ( they flicker red when limiting) off, I will check though.
Keith

Bruno Putzeys is an absolute genius and have of course made sure that even stupid people like me won't accidentally kill the Kiis.

Current-driven midrange? OMG this guy is ahead of the class!

 

[Lifer]

Hello all, and thank you Erin for the review!

Stupid question ahead : If one of the strong points of a cardioid design is to have a front fireing speakers without the reflections of the front wall, couldn't one replicate that (to some extend) with standard speakers by placing absorbers on the front wall behind the speakers ?
Basotec 10cm foam seems to have an absorbtion coefficient of 1 around 400Hz, wouldnt it make a standard speaker act like a cardioid above 400hz ?

Thanks in advance.

Best,
Lifer

 

[bigjacko]

Hello all, and thank you Erin for the review!

Stupid question ahead : If one of the strong points of a cardioid design is to have a front fireing speakers without the reflections of the front wall, couldn't one replicate that (to some extend) with standard speakers by placing absorbers on the front wall behind the speakers ?
Basotec 10cm foam seems to have an absorbtion coefficient of 1 around 400Hz, wouldnt it make a standard speaker act like a cardioid above 400hz ?

Thanks in advance.

Best,
Lifer

From a graph flowing around in this thread maybe a few pages ago, you can see that at maybe 40cm the dip is around 200 Hz. At even longer distance to the front wall the frequency will go lower, so harder to absorb. But don't be discouraged, even not perfectly absorbed you will still get the dip shallower, and higher frequency will become like cardioid. You can also pull the speaker a bit further out and make the dip at sub bass region, then use a sub so your speaker does not play at frequency that hasa dip.

 

[fluid]

If one of the strong points of a cardioid design is to have a front fireing speakers without the reflections of the front wall, couldn't one replicate that (to some extend) with standard speakers by placing absorbers on the front wall behind the speakers ?
Basotec 10cm foam seems to have an absorbtion coefficient of 1 around 400Hz, wouldnt it make a standard speaker act like a cardioid above 400hz ?

In essence yes but in practice there can be more to it. Lots of absorption can reduce the high frequency room response too much leaving it sounding dead. Wood slats or other options can help with that. Absorption coefficients of materials can't be directly used to say that 1.0 is total absorption in a room. 7.3.1 in Floyd Toole's 2nd Edition of Sound Reproduction has a good explanation.

Placing a speaker with the right kind of directivity near a wall allows the wanted bass boost without so much of the unwanted interference and is a very smart design direction. Using the boundary to positive effect instead of trying to remove it.

 

[Somafunk]

Found an interesting couple of video discussions by Bruno Putzeys as shown below, I figure he is one of those particular types of genius who’s brain is thinking 3 steps ahead of his ability to verbalise.

 

[RobL]

Guess he really likes that shirt

 

[HammerSandwich]

...couldn't one replicate that (to some extend) with standard speakers by placing absorbers on the front wall behind the speakers ?

I agree with earlier replies. Remember also that a cardioid's main goal is to produce big-speaker performance in a smaller box. Look at Erin's reviews, consider resulting Dutch/Kii polars when near the front wall, then ask what the JBL M2 delivers with similar placement.

In the end, it's always about how the speaker & room work as a system.

 

[Cadguy]

My listening room is 18' x 30 ' (basement rec room) and my speakers are placed with their front baffles 7 feet from the front (18 foot) wall and 4 feet from the side walls. I sit 12 feet from the speakers. In this type of set up is having cardioid speakers a moot point? Will I derive a massive improvement changing to Cardioid speakers when I have already have the freedom to place speakers far from the front wall? ( I don't want or need to cram my speakers and furniture close to the front wall.)

 

[MattHooper]

I dunno... I did just fine at 4 meters distance without having a limiter. I think it's a good safety net for someone who doesn't pay attention but I don't think it's necessary. I can see the case for it either way but I don't consider it a "must have" by any means. I think we are used to seeing it with more mainstream manufacturers because they want to keep their warranty claims low and if joe-blow buys a set of $130 monitors on Amazon he's pretty likely to pop those quickly. Whereas someone spending $12k+ on a set of speakers?.... I'd imagine much less likely.

But, again, the manufacturer can provide their rationale. After all, it is their butt on the line if a problem occurs due to lack of built-in limiter and they obviously don't seem to have an issue otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation about them not using one at all.

I don't do youtube comments so thought I'd mention this here after watching your review of the Kii 3:

You review was one of the most comprehensive, informative and well-articulated I've seen. Bravo! You are just getting better and better!