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KEF Reference and Blade Meta announced, but where is the R Meta?????

Arnas

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I have a R3 and I auditioned a Ref3 meta. Both in 500sqft rooms. My own room is not treated at all but we have sectionals to absorb some sound. Also both listening configs are 10ft equilateral triangle. At the store they used expensive parasound gear. At home I use minidsp and purifi. I listened to the same songs - Pink Floyd, Norah jones and some cello

Subjective: (ref 3 meta vs r3)
- R3m is slightly smoother and refined than r3
- R3m had much more bass. No sub needed for my use.
- R3m looked more stunning.
- at louder volumes R3m opened up more.

I can live with my R3 and will add a kc62. And enjoy the music at about 75db spl. Till KEF wows me with something new.

Tldr: blades blades blades. For visual and acoustic impact! Need to create some room for it to breathe.
I understand, but like to see comparison between these 2 and Ref1 meta.
 

steve59

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One of the rooms by holm audio had the ref 5 meta playing. I couldn’t tell which components were driving them but it was a small room with plenty of reflective surfaces and they sound great. No small feat for big speakers in a little room.
 

exm

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I have a R3 and I auditioned a Ref3 meta. Both in 500sqft rooms. My own room is not treated at all but we have sectionals to absorb some sound. Also both listening configs are 10ft equilateral triangle. At the store they used expensive parasound gear. At home I use minidsp and purifi. I listened to the same songs - Pink Floyd, Norah jones and some cello

Subjective: (ref 3 meta vs r3)
- R3m is slightly smoother and refined than r3
- R3m had much more bass. No sub needed for my use.
- R3m looked more stunning.
- at louder volumes R3m opened up more.

I can live with my R3 and will add a kc62. And enjoy the music at about 75db spl. Till KEF wows me with something new.

Tldr: blades blades blades. For visual and acoustic impact! Need to create some room for it to breathe.

Some questions/comments:
- Did KEF change the bass drivers in the Metas? I thought it was mostly around the Uni-Q?
- Please don't get the KC62 with a speaker like the Ref3. I tried the KC62 with the R11s and I had to return them. If you want a sub, get something much more substantial (my 2 cents).
 

HarmonicTHD

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Some questions/comments:
- Did KEF change the bass drivers in the Metas? I thought it was mostly around the Uni-Q?
- Please don't get the KC62 with a speaker like the Ref3. I tried the KC62 with the R11s and I had to return them. If you want a sub, get something much more substantial (my 2 cents).
Regarding the KC62. Fully agree, it is wonderful for small rooms and to extend the LS50 at moderate to low listening levels , but not for R7 and up.

I recently was looking to get subs just to even out the room induced nulls for my Ref3s and tested KC62, SVS3000 Micro and I even dragged over my Neumann KH750 from my office. For aesthetic reasons I wanted a small form factor.

However no chance. The Neumann fared the best, but still seemed a bit boomy / uncontrolled for a lack of a better word. The KC and the SVS made the Ref Bass even worse and didn’t add any extension to it although that wasn’t even the objective (one would say no wonder as they simply have half the woofer area as compared to the Refs, despite being located in a better acoustical position). (All subs in the „best“ room position, xo 80Hz, REW confirmed at 80dB SPL).

I currently have the KF92 and now we are talking. Much better and still small form factor. Might get a second one even.
 

Vacceo

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Regarding the KC62. Fully agree, it is wonderful for small rooms and to extend the LS50 at moderate to low listening levels , but not for R7 and up.

I recently was looking to get subs just to even out the room induced nulls for my Ref3s and tested KC62, SVS3000 Micro and I even dragged over my Neumann KH750 from my office. For aesthetic reasons I wanted a small form factor.

However no chance. The Neumann fared the best, but still seemed a bit boomy / uncontrolled for a lack of a better word. The KC and the SVS made the Ref Bass even worse and didn’t add any extension to it although that wasn’t even the objective (one would say no wonder as they simply have half the woofer area as compared to the Refs, despite being located in a better acoustical position). (All subs in the „best“ room position, xo 80Hz, REW confirmed at 80dB SPL).

I currently have the KF92 and now we are talking. Much better and still small form factor. Might get a second one even.
Will a 92 work well on a home theatre environment with a set of R speakers?

I am the kind of user that does love deep bass and subsonics, so the 92 feels a bit feeble.

Again, you can see the conandrum I have with Perlisten, as their subs are demolition hammers.
 
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HarmonicTHD

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Will a 92 work well on a home theatre environment with a set of R speakers?

I am the kind of user that does love deep bass and subsonics, so the 92 feels a bit feeble.

Again, you can see the conandrum I have with Perlisten, as their subs are demolition hammers.
For brutal bass I would go bigger subs 12 to 15inch. Plenty of brands and options - see the forum here: Subwoofer selection.

For me that was not the objective though as I just wanted to even out the nulls at the lowest distortion, while at the same time meet my aesthetic requirements (smallest working form factor). Some of these requirements are conflicting and I had to find the best compromise for my room.
 
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Vacceo

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For brutal bass I would go bigger subs 12 to 15inch. Plenty of brands and options - see the forum here: Subwoofer selection.

For me that was not the objective though as I just wanted to even out the nulls while at the same time meet my aesthetic requirements (smallest working form factor).
Good SPL does not mean distortion or lack of control, that's why I like KEF and Perlisten.

If the aim was monstrosity in the lower extension, my aim would be JL's Gotham. :D
 

HarmonicTHD

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Good SPL does not mean distortion or lack of control, that's why I like KEF and Perlisten.

If the aim was monstrosity in the lower extension, my aim would be JL's Gotham. :D
I think you need to quantify what SPL, distortion and extension you are looking for specifically. Once you are clearer in your objectives, the selection becomes simpler.

„Demolition hammer, feeble or monstrous bass etc“ are merely qualitative discriptors of what you want / not want and mean different things to you vs everyone else and therefore are not really helping much in giving you recommendations.
 
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Vacceo

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I think you need to quantify what SPL, distortion and extension you are looking for specifically. Once you are clearer in your objectives, the selection becomes simpler.

„Demolition hammer, feeble or monstrous bass etc“ are merely qualitative discriptors of what you want / not want and mean different things to you vs everyone else and therefore are not really helping much in giving you recommendations.
90 db at 1 meter on 20hz.

Due to physics of low extension frequencies, getting a relatively flat response on the 80 hz to 20hz on a room will require more than one unit. Capacity to generate even more SPL is a good idea due to the headroom it will inevitably require to tune it to the room.

I am currently using two PSW 2500 kef subwoofers. Luckily, they are close to the listening position and the bass up till 30 Hz is quite nice at moderate levels, but the combination has no headroom (it feels anemic on films with a heavy bass) and I'll be moving in some time to a larger room, so the extra watts on the amplifier and the capacity to go louder would be desireable.

I love infrasonics, however, I am aware they need quite large drivers and a lot of amplification. The amount of infrasonics in 99% of music is negligeable, for films and games, just a bit more. If I want a good volume of infrasonics, that will be expensive and it may not be worth to spend a lot for a capacity that will be used every so often.

With all these caveats, the KS92 sounded on paper like a great proposition, as the price - capability seems quite reasonable.
 
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HarmonicTHD

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90 db at 1 meter on 20hz.

Due to physics of low extension frequencies, getting a relatively flat response on the 80 hz to 20hz on a room will require more than one unit. Capacity to generate even more SPL is a good idea due to the headroom it will inevitably require to tune it to the room.

I am currently using two PSW 2500 kef subwoofers. Luckily, they are close to the listening position and the bass up till 30 Hz is quite nice at moderate levels, but the combination has no headroom (it feels anemic on films with a heavy bass) and I'll be moving in some time to a larger room, so the extra watts on the amplifier and the capacity to go louder would be desireable.

I love infrasonics, however, I am aware they need quite large drivers and a lot of amplification. The amount of infrasonics in 99% of music is negligeable, for films and games, just a bit more. If I want a good volume of infrasonics, that will be expensive and it may not be worth to spend a lot for a capacity that will be used every so often.

With all these caveats, the KS92 sounded on paper like a great proposition, as the price - capability seems quite reasonable.
Yes 90dB, 20Hz, 1m no problem. My REW measurements easily confirmed the manufacturer and other measurements such as this (although it only shows 80dB at 3m, but there is easily some 10dB headroom there at 20Hz). … and you can always get two or more, which is even better to even out the room modes, as you know.

 
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Vacceo

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Yes 90dB, 20Hz, 1m no problem. My REW measurements easily confirmed the manufacturer and other measurements such as this (although it only shows 80dB at 3m, but there is easily some 10-20dB headroom there at 20Hz). … and you can always get two or more, which is even better to even out the room modes, as you know.

What did you get for 10hz at 1 meter? That is really pushing hard on its capacities.

Edit: 70db at 10hz. For a sub that size it is a feat of engineering! One cannot help but wonder what it could do on a 1300 w amp...
 

HarmonicTHD

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What did you get for 10hz at 1 meter? That is really pushing hard on its capacities.

Edit: 70db at 10hz. For a sub that size it is a feat of engineering! One cannot help but wonder what it could do on a 1300 w amp...
I didn’t check 10Hz as it wasn’t relevant for my use case. Only swept 20 to 20kHz with REW.

Again, unless form factor is a requirement ( as it was for me) bigger is always better eg SVS 3000 or up and amp power is not helping beyond a certain point either as driver excursion is physically limited and distortion skyrockets. For 10Hz the KF92 is the wrong choice to really be comfortable imho.

But just order some and test it. Probably quicker as opposed to theoretically trying to verify some borderline use cases (10hz) based on other people’s incl mine) experience, requirements, room etc. Most dealers offer a 14 to 30 days return policy and when you carefully treat the product at least I didn’t have any trouble getting my money back for the other subs (kc62, SVs micro) I tested.
 
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HarmonicTHD

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KMO

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Here's what my single KF92 can do in my room (4.5m x 4.7m, with doorways open to hall and kitchen). Measured at listening position. Traces are labelled as LFE dBFS at reference volume so "-40" should be 75dB SPL (actually higher in the bass region due to downward slope).

Sweeps at various levels, to give some idea of what the DSP limiting does. Measurements with UMIK-1 - not sure how much to trust it at such high levels. (I understand there's an internal gain adjustment that might help, but didn't try it).

The way that 20Hz gets "pinched" most at high levels, seems a bit weird. I wonder if with the sweep going upwards, it takes a bit of time to respond to the high level and kick in limiting, and so 20Hz in the sweep gets lowered more than 10Hz?


1651586377314.png
 

abdo123

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Here's what my single KF92 can do in my room (4.5m x 4.7m, with doorways open to hall and kitchen). Measured at listening position. Traces are labelled as LFE dBFS at reference volume so "-40" should be 75dB SPL (actually higher in the bass region due to downward slope).

Sweeps at various levels, to give some idea of what the DSP limiting does. Measurements with UMIK-1 - not sure how much to trust it at such high levels. (I understand there's an internal gain adjustment that might help, but didn't try it).

The way that 20Hz gets "pinched" most at high levels, seems a bit weird. I wonder if with the sweep going upwards, it takes a bit of time to respond to the high level and kick in limiting, and so 20Hz in the sweep gets lowered more than 10Hz?


View attachment 204215
No you just have a room mode at 10Hz boosting that frequency. It's very obviously limiting there too.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Here's what my single KF92 can do in my room (4.5m x 4.7m, with doorways open to hall and kitchen). Measured at listening position. Traces are labelled as LFE dBFS at reference volume so "-40" should be 75dB SPL (actually higher in the bass region due to downward slope).

Sweeps at various levels, to give some idea of what the DSP limiting does. Measurements with UMIK-1 - not sure how much to trust it at such high levels. (I understand there's an internal gain adjustment that might help, but didn't try it).

The way that 20Hz gets "pinched" most at high levels, seems a bit weird. I wonder if with the sweep going upwards, it takes a bit of time to respond to the high level and kick in limiting, and so 20Hz in the sweep gets lowered more than 10Hz?


View attachment 204215
Thx for sharing.

The „pinch at 20Hz“ is easily explained by room modes imho. Peaks increase and nulls decrease the more energy you pump into it. Same reason why it is futile to EQ Nulls. Please correct if I am wrong here.
 

KMO

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No you just have a room mode at 10Hz boosting that frequency. It's very obviously limiting there too.
Not really sure what room modes do that's level dependent, tbh.

You can see the -40, -35 and -30 sweeps are all basically parallel, 5dB apart, then suddenly -25 is different. Can the room really do something that non-linear?
 

HarmonicTHD

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Not really sure what room modes do that's level dependent, tbh.

You can see the -40, -35 and -30 sweeps are all basically parallel, 5dB apart, then suddenly -25 is different. Can the room really do something that non-linear?
Sure it can. See my explanation above.

Edit: On second thought, there might be other explanations too, but I am approaching my limit of expertise ;-)
1) It could be, that it is resonances from eg furniture, walls etc. You check this by looking at the waterfall plot. The decay times should be increasingly longer.
2) Secondly it could come that internal control limits driver excursion at 15, 20Hz at these high SPL levels and SPL does not increase linearily anymore for these frequencies. JoeNTell showed this in measurements for the smaller KC62, of course at lower SPLs already, but again I am not certain if it applies here. Afterall there is some limit what a sub this size can do.

There might be more explanations. …
 
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Matias

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