KEF Reference 5

[HarmonicTHD]

The speakers I’m looking to replace are size-wise in between Ref 3 and 5, so I’m not worried about this.

My major concerns are rolling off the highs too much, which the Stereophile measurements point to, which would give them a “dark” sound particularly off axis. This for me is a narrow balancing act, it‘s got to be just right. I hope it will be more Revel F208 and less Amphion Argon.

The second is the use of 6.5” drivers on the KEF. I personally have never heard the bass I like from 6.5”, only from 8” or larger. I’m very curious to see if they manage to be the exception. I don’t need 20Hz but a good 25 would be nice to have.

On the other hand I love low distortion and a flat mid-range.

I’m very curious to hear them.

I wouldn’t worry about alleged „darkness“ it is subjective anyhow and at these levels depends very much on the room. Besides you can always EQ and raise the highs as the KEFs have nice directivity and lend themselves to EQ. Of course within limits to adapt to room or personal preferences.

Let us know if you bought them.

 

[symphara]

I wouldn’t worry about alleged „darkness“ it is subjective anyhow and at these levels depends very much on the room. Besides you can always EQ and raise the highs as the KEFs have nice directivity and lend themselves to EQ. Of course within limits to adapt to room or personal preferences.

Let us know if you bought them.

Do you think it would be worth lugging my amplifier? I've been reading on the References last night and some say performance varies a lot based on amplification.

It's heavy and I don't really want to, but on the other side it would solve my source problem - dealer wants a CD, I'd prefer a USB sick (easier), I can just make sure the stick works in my amp.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Do you think it would be worth lugging my amplifier? I've been reading on the References last night and some say performance varies a lot based on amplification.

It's heavy and I don't really want to, but on the other side it would solve my source problem - dealer wants a CD, I'd prefer a USB sick (easier), I can just make sure the stick works in my amp.

Only if the seller can’t play your choice of music and provided they use a modern amp with plenty of power (200W min). (BTW. Yello 30.000 miles Just sounds great on Ref5s imho).

It is more likely that the room affects the sound more than any difference in amps.

 

[symphara]

Only if the seller can’t play your choice of music and provided they use a modern amp with plenty of power (200W min). (BTW. Yello 30.000 miles Just sounds great on Ref5s imho).

It is more likely that the room affects the sound more than any difference in amps.

30.000 miles or days?

The Expert is usually my first test track.

The dealer is afraid that whatever USB stick I bring might not work, hence the CD.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

30.000 miles or days?

The Expert is usually my first test track.

The dealer is afraid that whatever USB stick I bring might not work, hence the CD.

Days. Sorry.

 

[symphara]

Ok just got back from the audition. I took about an hour listening material spanning new and older jazz, oldish rock, prog, electronic and classical. Plus The Expert by Yello

On the positive side, what's immediately obvious is the wonderful midrange, amazing horizontal dispersion and precise imaging. They are not fatiguing speakers in any way, without being overly polite.

However the wide dispersion is a double edged sword, as it mostly robs you of using toe-in to control the brightness, I experimented with this and the sound changes only very slightly.

I was hoping that the famous Kef Reference 5, with all that driver tech will put to bed my belief that no great bass can be had with 6.5" drivers. Alas they couldn't do it.

I did not like the bass. I will grant all the bad room interaction, obviously I had no opportunity to experiment with the port tubes, there was no DSP and no bass control. However the bass wasn't very deep and to me it sounded tubby. Full range just isn't here in my opinion.

The other issue was the top end. While instruments sounded realistic and there was generally a fluid, very pleasant presentation - it made tracks like "Love song" from Timeless (Abercrombie) really lovely and intimate - they also felt claustrophobic with other material. On the same album, the last track, "Timeless", was unpleasant, like the top was just lobbed off. It could be that I'm used to brighter sound, after all I was listening to music in the car on the way there and the car has ribbon tweeters but I didn't like it, I think it's too rolled off.

Overall this wasn't a huge issue for me and it was overshadowed by the positives, and bass can probably be fixed with DSP and a subwoofer. These are good speakers no doubt.

I think the wheels come off in the value for money department. In my opinion the Revel F208 sounded better. Better bass, a bit more open, equally precise, for a fraction of the price. I imagine the 328Be would blow the KEFs out of the water and they still cost less.

What the Revels (excepting the Salon 2) don't do is good looks, which these KEFs have in spades.

It was an interesting but in the end rather disappointing experience. For potential end game speakers, given the list price, I expected to be blown away and I really wasn't.

 

[bo_knows]

Ok just got back from the audition. I took about an hour listening material spanning new and older jazz, oldish rock, prog, electronic and classical. Plus The Expert by Yello

On the positive side, what's immediately obvious is the wonderful midrange, amazing horizontal dispersion and precise imaging. They are not fatiguing speakers in any way, without being overly polite.

However the wide dispersion is a double edged sword, as it mostly robs you of using toe-in to control the brightness, I experimented with this and the sound changes only very slightly.

I was hoping that the famous Kef Reference 5, with all that driver tech will put to bed my belief that no great bass can be had with 6.5" drivers. Alas they couldn't do it.

I did not like the bass. I will grant all the bad room interaction, obviously I had no opportunity to experiment with the port tubes, there was no DSP and no bass control. However the bass wasn't very deep and to me it sounded tubby. Full range just isn't here in my opinion.

The other issue was the top end. While instruments sounded realistic and there was generally a fluid, very pleasant presentation - it made tracks like "Love song" from Timeless (Abercrombie) really lovely and intimate - they also felt claustrophobic with other material. On the same album, the last track, "Timeless", was unpleasant, like the top was just lobbed off. It could be that I'm used to brighter sound, after all I was listening to music in the car on the way there and the car has ribbon tweeters but I didn't like it, I think it's too rolled off.

Overall this wasn't a huge issue for me and it was overshadowed by the positives, and bass can probably be fixed with DSP and a subwoofer. These are good speakers no doubt.

I think the wheels come off in the value for money department. In my opinion the Revel F208 sounded better. Better bass, a bit more open, equally precise, for a fraction of the price. I imagine the 328Be would blow the KEFs out of the water and they still cost less.

What the Revels (excepting the Salon 2) don't do is good looks, which these KEFs have in spades.

It was an interesting but in the end rather disappointing experience. For potential end game speakers, given the list price, I expected to be blown away and I really wasn't.

Of course, IMHO, unless you are in a fully treated room, you will have no idea what is the full potential of those or any other speakers. One of the ways to compare what bass is doing is to listen same material via good headphones that have flat low-frequency responses and do a quick comparison. This will show you the room and speaker interaction. This can also be confirmed via REW measurements in the room. Your opinion or mine of what the "great" bass sound like could vary but measurements will clear this up. Well, now you know, KEFs are not for you and it seems you agree with John Atkinson's opinion that this is a B component (meaning just an ok box).
I guess the search for a holly grail speaker continues for you.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

. One of the ways to compare what bass is doing is to listen same material via good headphones that have flat low-frequency responses and do a quick comparison.

This is extremely useful, seriously...

I calibrated my R7s using my headphones for verify if the room correction was done properly, a thing that didn't show measurements was the difference between the left and the right speaker, thanks to my headphone i completed the room correction properly, the only solution was calibrate the channels alone..

And because of my headphone I know that my R7 have a -5dB (something like that) slope in 10khz -> 20khz, I boosted that part and it sounds more normal, the highs needs a boost in that range. But it's easily EQed.





In-room bass is always problematic unless the room is big and with not much near objects the speakers imho, my friend have the ref3 and in his big room is not that problematic, but in my room the bass is very bad, after room correction is much much better. But his room is very lively and mine is well damped overall.

To me the Kefs can sound extremely good after a correction, personallythe umik1 is the magician that gives me what i like to hear, because of 2 things. bass correction and boost if it's necessary and, i like to do a 1 - 2 dB in 3khz and add more treble in the range 10khz-20khz.
In my R7 i did -1.5dB at 3khz (Normal filter, Q:1.41) and a +5dB 9khz using a (High-shelf filter, Q:25).

If i have my friend ref3 im pretty sure i would use a similars filters at 3khz and 9khz, but at 9khz only about +3dB necessary, the R are darker in that area vs the ref.

But at the same time, that how Kef tune it's speakers...
In my point of view what most people dislike about these Reference/R, it's the 10khz - 20khz part, where it's the sparkle in the cymbals and the air.

 

[symphara]

In-room bass is always problematic unless the room is big and with not much near objects the speakers imho, my friend have the ref3 and in his big room is not that problematic, but in my room the bass is very bad, after room correction is much much better. But his room is very lively and mine is well damped overall.

The room was very large and well dampened, curtains, acoustic panels etc. The speaker/listener setup was basically in the middle of the room, at least 2m away from any objects. Obviously, as I said, I didn't have the opportunity to experiment (except for toe-in), there was no DSP, just a straight CD player -> analog integrated amp -> speakers setup.

What was clear was that in this setup bass was deficient in two ways. It was unequal in presentation. I called it tubby and it sounded like that. Second, it was beyond doubt for me that whatever you can correct with placement, EQ, port tubes etc, you cannot get full range out of these speakers because they don't go that low.

To paraphrase Jane Austin, I was ready, willing and even determined to let them show me that 6.5" drivers can deliver that subwoofer-free experience and they clearly could not. In fairness, it's not like KEF advertises them as full range.

But at the same time, that how Kef tune it's speakers...
In my point of view what most people dislike about these Reference/R, it's the 10khz - 20khz part, where it's the sparkle in the cymbals and the air.

True, not that big an issue but it was noticeable. The cymbals are fine but "air" is missing almost completely. It's not always bad. For example I tried a track from Kind of Blue (SACD, Japan remastering) which is a wonderful remaster but has fairly noticeable hiss. In fairness, recorded in the 50's. Lack of "air" actually improved the reproduction by making the tape hiss almost disappear.

These are good speakers but to me they made no sense as a value proposition. It's like selling a BMW 530 for Porsche 911 money. The BMW is a fine car but it would make no sense at that price.

 

[bo_knows]

The room was very large and well dampened, curtains, acoustic panels etc. The speaker/listener setup was basically in the middle of the room, at least 2m away from any objects. Obviously, as I said, I didn't have the opportunity to experiment (except for toe-in), there was no DSP, just a straight CD player -> analog integrated amp -> speakers setup.

What was clear was that in this setup bass was deficient in two ways. It was unequal in presentation. I called it tubby and it sounded like that. Second, it was beyond doubt for me that whatever you can correct with placement, EQ, port tubes etc, you cannot get full range out of these speakers because they don't go that low.

To paraphrase Jane Austin, I was ready, willing and even determined to let them show me that 6.5" drivers can deliver that subwoofer-free experience and they clearly could not. In fairness, it's not like KEF advertises them as full range.


True, not that big an issue but it was noticeable. The cymbals are fine but "air" is missing almost completely. It's not always bad. For example I tried a track from Kind of Blue (SACD, Japan remastering) which is a wonderful remaster but has fairly noticeable hiss. In fairness, recorded in the 50's. Lack of "air" actually improved the reproduction by making the tape hiss almost disappear.

These are good speakers but to me they made no sense as a value proposition. It's like selling a BMW 530 for Porsche 911 money. The BMW is a fine car but it would make no sense at that price.

Are you implying that Revel 328Be is Porsche and KEF ref 5 is BMW? One is made in China and the other is custom ordered, hand-assembled in GB, and pair matched to 0.5dB. Please show me one speaker in this price range that puts the KEF reference series to shame when it comes to construction and please, for starters, don't show me the speakers that have visible screw heads holding the drivers to the cabinet.

P.S. I just saw the crates that Revel 328Be is shipped in. Wow! Now that's on another level in comparison with KEF packaging which I think it's ridiculous. Got to give the credit where credit is due.

 

[bo_knows]

As for the lack of bass performance, this is a good read:

Speaker Placement 101: Is Speaker-Boundary Interference Killing Your Bass?

Not hearing enough bass through your monitors? The distance between your room boundaries and speakers has a huge impact on your bass performance. This tutorial will show you specific strategies for placing your speakers to get a balanced bass response.

arqen.com

Especially this part:

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Bass it's completly room depending. If you don't believe me, use a pair of headphones and then remove his pads
To be honest i wouldn't put the ref5 in a room bigger than 6x6 meters, i want room gain..., if the place it's too big, then dual and even quad subwoofers it's mandatory.

But yeah, i'm with you about the highs, thats why i EQed my speaker.

 

[symphara]

Are you implying that Revel 328Be is Porsche and KEF ref 5 is BMW? One is made in China and the other is custom ordered, hand-assembled in GB, and pair matched to 0.5dB. Please show me one speaker in this price range that puts the KEF reference series to shame when it comes to construction and please, for starters, don't show me the speakers that have visible screw heads holding the drivers to the cabinet.

P.S. I just saw the crates that Revel 328Be is shipped in. Wow! Now that's on another level in comparison with KEF packaging which I think it's ridiculous. Got to give the credit where credit is due.

I made no comment on the construction therefore I don't really understand your point. For me this is rather irrelevant, I want it for the sound, not where it was built. I actually think that most speakers today are fairly well built so this is no great differentiator for me. Cabinet resonances would be more important, which has to do with cabinet design rather than assembly, and here the KEFs are not entirely blemish free.

As for "hand assembled in GB", I'm not sure it's quite the praise you think it is.

But as I said, these are very handsome speakers, I particularly liked their looks, it's clean and high-tech without being over the top.

 

[EliGuy]

As for the lack of bass performance, this is a good read:

Speaker Placement 101: Is Speaker-Boundary Interference Killing Your Bass?

Not hearing enough bass through your monitors? The distance between your room boundaries and speakers has a huge impact on your bass performance. This tutorial will show you specific strategies for placing your speakers to get a balanced bass response.

arqen.com

Especially this part:

Indeed, if you're willing to do a little remodelling its silly the sound quality you could get with even some cheap drivers mounted into the walls with big ol' waveguides About $2k could get you something really special I reckon. And a bunch of drywall dust. But then you can pocket the other $18k and take the family on a nice vacation instead

 

[Ron Texas]

The Reference series is a very expensive deluxe version of the R series. Even discounted it might not be a great value in sound quality. It will look expensive if that's what you want. The OP might be better off with an R series Meta if he likes KEF.

 

[exm]

I have owned the 1990s Reference Fours and I have owned the R900, R11 an Reference 5 afterwards (all non-Meta).

Purely for a bass perspective the Ref Four wins. However, the Ref 5 has some really tight, controlled and deep bass. In fact, I like it better compared to the R900 with their dual 8” drivers. Now the R11 on the other hand is clearly lacking bass compared to the others I tested.

In short, the Ref 5 are fantastic speakers. However, I still have some great subs to compliment them.