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KEF Reference 5 VS Blade 2 vs Muon

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MarkWinston

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Thanks for flagging your biases and ignorant judgementalism. I gather you see yourself as a proud and rarely-seen-here Category 3 and looking waaay down your nose at the 'lower' category "types of people". You have much to learn but, like you say, the big question is, are you capable of budging? Your own evidence, from your own posts, says No. Well, good luck.
Looks like someone felt it. Love it when someone calls me bias.. lololololol! Must be in category 1. Ouch. Good luck! Hahahahahhahahahaha!

Guess you cant read well too, because it was your flawed judgement that put me in category 3, nothing else. Thought you knew a lot but still got a simple thing wrong?

I have much to learn? Yes, PLENTY to learn. I know next to nothing. Unlike someone that knows it all here. People like you would go real far in life. Bravo.
 
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buz

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Of course, there is a 4th category. The trolls, some more, some less obvious.
 
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MarkWinston

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Of course, there is a 4th category. The trolls, some more, some less obvious.
Do not take everyone that disagrees with you as a troll. Some have a very wild view of things and they are not trolling. I have not seen a troll in this entire forum, unless the term troll has changed recently.
 
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Soniclife

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I don't think so.
The sound radiated by the cabinet is not accurate.
People have argued that it is at too low a level to matter.
I'm what way aren't they accurate?

I'm struggling to see how a speaker that has flat response, and good off axis response can have problematic resonances. I'm not suggesting that resonances that clearly show up in measurements are not an audible issue, but in well designed speakers that measures well how can there be problematic audible resonances? I can see how they can exist in low resolution or heavily smoothed measurements, but that's an issue with low quality measurements, and good reasons not to use them.
 

steve59

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How do measurements measure resolution? The salon 2 will let us hear deeper into a recording than the f208 and with stereo listening the difference between the salon 2 would be much greater than the 328be because the heroic cabinet build (and dedicated lower mid) reduce distortion and create a much more realistic soundstage.

The more I come on this forum the more I think its original intentions have gone horribly awry. Dr Toole doesn't have a room full of f12 or f35 speakers in his room waving around measurements, he uses salon 2 for which on the forum that hides behind his name he would be laughed at for price bias.
 

steve59

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Kef's all have pretty good max spl ratings. This is a recurring argument on this forum that I think is more of a disconnect. Can we agree the r will get us 90% of the ref and the 10% is of no matter to HT users? hearing a chorus and having a speaker that separates the individuals in the chorus, Do measurements say which speaker will do that better? I don't have a problem with folk that can't understand why the last 10% cost 100% as much as the first 90, but denying its there is another story.
 

tecnogadget

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Kef's all have pretty good max spl ratings. This is a recurring argument on this forum that I think is more of a disconnect. Can we agree the r will get us 90% of the ref and the 10% is of no matter to HT users? hearing a chorus and having a speaker that separates the individuals in the chorus, Do measurements say which speaker will do that better? I don't have a problem with folk that can't understand why the last 10% cost 100% as much as the first 90, but denying its there is another story.

You can get to the point that extra 10% is indistinguishable under proper blind testing if DSP applied. I don’t get why people get that much fascinated with the floorstander models, I would take the bookshelf of both series as the departure, ad bigger cabinet, more drivers and different crossover and chances are you introduce more issues than benefits with towers.
Lets take R3 vs REF 1, integrate them both with a subwoofer, use Acourate or Audiolense for state of the art DSP and choose the same target curve for both speakers. Use Olive-Toole, Harman, or whatever target curve that doesn’t change too much from original response of both speakers but at least conply with a 10dB slope down from 20Hz to 20Khz. And then level match both systems in a controled blind test.
I highly doubt people will be able to tell which is which. And if so, most probably will come to the realization that the $ gap is questionable. The sad part of the story is I can’t actually prove it until such experiment is performed...and I don’t have the means, but the measurements are available to anyone.
 
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steve59

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All I can do is double down on my last statement. Subs are really distracting have no use in my stereo system, I do enjoy subterranean bass in my HT tho'. When I say 10% i'm not measuring range but resolution. A hot tweeter amplifies everything and while it may give the illusion of higher rez it also adds sibilance to the recording that distracts from the music.
 
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Pdxwayne

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You can get to the point that extra 10% is indistinguishable under proper blind testing if DSP applied. I don’t get why people get that much fascinated with the floorstander models, I would take the bookshelf of both series as the departure, ad bigger cabinet, more drivers and different crossover and chances are you introduce more issues than benefits with towers.
Lets take R3 vs REF 1, integrate them both with a subwoofer, use Acourate or Audiolense for state of the art DSP and choose the same target curve for both speakers. Use Olive-Toole, Harman, or whatever target curve that doesn’t change too much from original response of both speakers but at least conply with a 10dB slope down from 20Hz to 20Khz. And then level match both systems in a controled blind test.
I highly doubt people will be able to tell which is which. And if so, most probably will come to the realization that the $ gap is questionable. The sad part of the story is I can’t actually prove it until such experiment is performed...and I don’t have the means, but the measurements are available to anyone.
From Amir review of R3:
..........
Alas, once again subjective feeling was low. My standard routine is to cycle through my reference clips that I have selected during all my normal listening to sound superb on my Revel Salon 2 Speakers. Sadly hardly any of them sounded all that good here. Yes, the highs were there. The lows at times were there. But overall experience was unexciting and unengaging for lack of a better word.
.........

My own impressions when briefly audition R series floor stander in my dealer room: unengaging and lack of big sound stage.

Amir said this later:
..........
The objective measurements will nail the Olive score no doubt. And they present for the third time a conflict with my subjective listening impressions
.........

I would love to be able to be part of blind test group, along with everyone here that can sense a difference between R series and Reference series.
 

Pdxwayne

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All I can do is double down on my last statement. Subs are really distracting have no use in my stereo system, I do enjoy subterranean bass in my HT tho'. When I say 10% i'm not measuring range but resolution. A hot tweeter amplifies everything and while it may give the illusion of higher rez it also adds sibilance to the recording that distracts from the music.
Curious, how do you deal with room modes for bass?

I am sensitive to sibilance. I guess you are too?
 

tecnogadget

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From Amir review of R3:
..........
Alas, once again subjective feeling was low. My standard routine is to cycle through my reference clips that I have selected during all my normal listening to sound superb on my Revel Salon 2 Speakers. Sadly hardly any of them sounded all that good here. Yes, the highs were there. The lows at times were there. But overall experience was unexciting and unengaging for lack of a better word.
.........

My own impressions when briefly audition R series floor stander in my dealer room: unengaging and lack of big sound stage.

Amir said this later:
..........
The objective measurements will nail the Olive score no doubt. And they present for the third time a conflict with my subjective listening impressions
.........

I would love to be able to be part of blind test group, along with everyone here that can sense a difference between R series and Reference series.

I don’t get how Amir single subjective impression has something to do with the proposed blind test (that probably not happening at all, like many others). At least it would have a slight relationship if amir also had reviewed an REF 1.
It also looked like you missed how later Amir changed his mind as he tamed a room mode, yeah R3 have extended lows and they will interfiere with room modes. That was one of the less reliable outcomes of all Klippel listening reviews.
 

blueone

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The other thing those cars have in common with the Muon/Blade apart from price, is that practically everyone who buys them will never use them in a way that reveals their specialness.

I don't agree with your statement for sports cars or speakers. For speakers, as I mentioned in post a while back I'm too lazy to search for, all of the high-end speakers (>$10K/pair) I've seen recently are in home theater systems. I called myself a dinosaur for having a dedicated expensive two-channel music system. I don't know how they normally listen, but when they were demo-ing the systems for me the owners listened at near reference levels. Of the systems I've heard my favorite included Magico M5s, and I can say for sure the owner was getting and appreciating state of the art sound from them. They sounded pretty special to me. In two-channel mode with the subs turned off with my own recordings streamed to his system, I was very impressed. (Most people I visit have their sub levels adjusted too high, to hear them better, so I asked that the subs be disabled for music.) I don't know of anyone who buys very expensive speakers to use them for background music, and I know several people with equipment in that class.

Sports cars are, of course, different than speakers. Modern high performance sports cars can only really reach their limits on an appropriate race track, and few sports car owners are trained or care to risk their lives or their $100K+ cars to see what they can "really do". Just about anyone, even just driving around town, can recognize and understand the awesome handling of a mid-engine ICE sports car. It's not subtle. Even Car & Driver mentioned they could not tell the difference between a 911 Turbo base car and the Turbo S, but something as mundane accelerating onto an expressway lets you feel the difference between a 380hp car (Like a base 911, which is oddly also a Turbo car, but let's not get started on how stupid Porsche nomenclature is. Porsche even specs a Taycan "Turbo", which is an EV. So dumb.) and a 580hp 911 Turbo. A Boxster or Cayman GTS's goodness is easily discerned at "reasonable" speeds (ha!) on a winding two-lane. (Just speaking of cars I've driven.) Great cars drive better even in modest street conditions.
 
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Pdxwayne

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I don’t get how Amir single subjective impression has something to do with the proposed blind test (that probably not happening at all, like many others). At least it would have a slight relationship if amir also had reviewed an REF 1.
It also looked like you missed how later Amir changed his mind as he tamed a room mode, yeah R3 have extended lows and they will interfiere with room modes. That was one of the less reliable outcomes of all Klippel listening reviews.
His later edit was too brief to be meaningful to me. What exactly improved after room mode adjustment? Did it improve his reference speakers also or just the R3? Was R3 as good as his reference speakers after room mode adjustment? Not enough information.

I hope you at least got the chance to listen to both R series and Reference series?
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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His later edit was too brief to be meaningful to me. What exactly improved after room mode adjustment? Did it improve his reference speakers also or just the R3? Was R3 as good as his reference speakers after room mode adjustment? Not enough information.

I hope you at least got the chance to listen to both R series and Reference series?
Did you fix a room mode? Just remember how much it change when you fixed the room mode and you can imagine the update from r3 review.
Amir have a dip in 105hz and that change a lot how the speaker sounds like, it was one of the first reviews.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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I think many audiophiles here got so much placebo when Amir said " it was unengaging" because Amir said that a lot of people came with that idea but weird news! The speaker hadnt anything weird, just a room mode.
Measurements>>>>>>>listening sesion in stores.
 

steve59

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Curious, how do you deal with room modes for bass?

I am sensitive to sibilance. I guess you are too?

My room shape has opposing diagonal corners and the room is deep enough that I have placement options, that said speakers with side firing woofers always sound great in this room. Using the stereophile test cd shows a 6 db boost around 60 hz but surprisingly smooth the rest of the way. low bass 25 hz and down gets the hvac ducts rattling with subs. I'm not saying subs wouldn't improve my enjoyment just that I haven't been able to integrate them successfully.
 

Pdxwayne

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Did you fix a room mode? Just remeber how much it change when you fixed the room mode and you can imagine the update from r3 review.
Amir have a dip in 105hz and that change a lot how the speaker sounds like, it was one of the first reviews.
Like I said, not enough info. Did it only effect one speaker and not the other? Did it also improve his reference speaker in his room? Sounded great didn't tell me much. Did R3 perform the same as his reference speakers after room mode fix? Not enough info.

Anyway, have you heard any of the speakers?
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Like I said, not enough info. Did it only effect one speaker and not the other? Did it also improve his reference speaker in his room? Sounded great didn't tell me much. Did R3 perform the same as his reference speakers after room mode fix? Not enough info.
If you want more info, there is the objetive data. ;)
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Like I said, not enough info. Did it only effect one speaker and not the other? Did it also improve his reference speaker in his room? Sounded great didn't tell me much. Did R3 perform the same as his reference speakers after room mode fix? Not enough info.

Anyway, have you heard any of the speakers?
I have the R7 and also listened the reference 3.
 
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