KEF Reference 4C Review (Center Speaker)

[sarumbear]

Just be aware, that outside some truly unusual design, almost any retail speaker can be emulated at a far lower cost.

Do you include co-axial speakers in that declaration given the fact that there are very few choices available for hobbyists?

 

[JD_Spoon]

I sense a lot of Anti DIY speaker stuff here at times.

So as someone who sank their money into a moderately high-end approach, I feel obliged to respond. Let me first say I have no disrespect for the DIY crowd. Quite the opposite, I'm frequently very impressed with the quality of work a passionately motivated individual can produce in their own garage or workshop. That said, when I consider my personal position and my particular use case for audio equipment, my judgment landed in a different direction.

I started off knowing very little about audio equipment when I started my journey more than a year ago. Part of the process was actually getting enough knowledge about the various components and the underlying principles they operate on so that I could make an informed decision of my own accord, rather than using a salesperson as a consultant to tell me what I should buy and how much it would all cost. I spent over a year doing my research. This included an extensive reading of marketing material cleverly disguised as reviews, pages upon pages & video after video to learn about technical aspects of sound reproduction and audio equipment engineering, and even learning how to interpret objective testing results and calibrating my own listening experiences against them. During the course of this, I auditioned nearly 3 dozen different speaker models from at least 18 manufacturers, with costs ranging from $1,000 to over $32,000 per pair, and which to my own ears ranged from astounding to utterly awful. Significantly, even if I had opted to take a DIY approach, I think I still would have needed to do this, so I would have an understanding of what I should aspire to produce, and what would be a reasonable target.

As a result, I am quite confident that while I could have continued to seek out more options, I made a sound decision for my own case. I have yet to find any cause for even a hint of buyer's remorse, other than I couldn't find acceptably equivalent quality and feature match for less spend. The only caveats were that first, I would not be able to consider something that I couldn't hear beforehand. This precluded a few options, like the Perlisten speakers, that should otherwise have been under consideration. Second, my attempts to audition Revel's speakers were marred by backing equipment overload ($30k+ of Mark Levinson processing and monoblocks on a $7,500 speaker pair that made them sound about as good as anything else in that speaker's price range, really?) or by a terrible room setup that made it difficult to evaluate them fairly. I know they couldn't possibly sound as underwhelming in my own space as they did in a room that made every speaker in them sound muddy. Even the Salon2 pair. How do you even do that?

Having done all that, couldn't I have then turned around and undertaken a DIY project? Superficially, the answer is yes. However, the practical reality is that I judged this to be a poor use of my time and money. I do not have many of the tools I would need to do the work, nor any dedicated workspace in which to operate them. Just setting up the space to undertake this project would have cost significantly more than some of the speakers I evaluated. Further, for all the theoretical knowledge I've gained in the matter of research, which is by no means exhaustive, I have no practical experience in this sort of construction project. Implementing it would almost certainly take significant time and effort beyond what I'd already expended, and I am fairly certain it would take multiple iterations of materials to get something reasonably close to what would be acceptable. That's assuming that with my limited experience and skill, such an outcome was even realistically feasible in a reasonable timeframe, which is highly questionable. Given the other life and hobby considerations that consume my money and time, and given the quality of output I can get from a quality product derived from someone else's research and labor dollars, the value assessment for my specific use case approach was trivial to make.

So rather than taking a pro- or anti-DIY space, I instead submit that circumstances will vary between individuals. It's reasonable to ask questions to understand if someone has made an informed decision when choosing to spend what may be a subjectively large amount of money to your view. Ultimately, if someone expends the effort to make an informed consideration and decision on what approach fits their needs, people on both sides should respect the decision they've made for themselves.

 

[Celty]

Listening Tests
I was in the process of wiring up the speaker to listen to it in the measurement lab when my worried wife ran into the room and said: "downstairs bathroom is flooding!" I rushed out to deal with that and have not had a chance to listen to the 4C yet. I hope to still get a chance to do so and report back.

Yikes - more water! Have you considered something like this?
https://myspool.com/content/water-detector-model-ast01

Only half kidding, hope you don't have to to be on basement duty much longer

 

[Urvile]

I wonder how this compares to the center channel I picked Polk Legend L400 . They also measure well but, the way the results are presented differently enough I'm unsure if it's an apples to apples comparison. https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/polk-l200-l400/conclusion , does anyone have any insight?

 

[jhaider]

I sense a lot of Anti DIY speaker stuff here at times.

Don’t confuse anti-hubris for “Anti DIY.” Those of us who have built our fair share of speakers and have a large rack full of drive units and crossover parts have a pretty good eye for what a speaker might cost to emulate.

Time spend and cost of tools does not matter when one is doing it for a HOBBY.

It’s all a hobby, unless you turn it into a career - e.g. going from a thread on diyaudio to putting one of the most (and rightly!) celebrated speakers on the market right now into production. Also, time has value, unless you’re young and idle. Lastly, equipment expenses are also opportunity costs. The point is, by the time someone reaches a level where they can design or build (or both) something like this, they’ve put way more time and money into the audio hobby already than it would take to buy speakers such as these. And probably had fun in the process, too! But the economics are the economics.

Just be aware, that outside some truly unusual design, almost any retail speaker can be emulated at a far lower cost.

I don’t discount DIY. I’ve built a number of speakers (some I’ve shown measurements of here), and commissioned cabinets from the likes of Nathan Funk and Del Won (he built many of the Philharmonic Audio cabinets) for projects because I don’t have the space or patience to finish cabinets. There’s a lot of really cutting edge stuff being made and designs, from Marcel’s waveguide software and Brandon’s 3D printed WGs, to many of the variations on Danley’s Unity/Syngergy horns, to the work here on the new (and much more interesting) Directiva. But I’m also a realist. Put another way, game recognizes genius.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I have a hard time seeing sound as well

Modulation occurs, so it should be measured.
Does KEF publish measurements or findings that this is a non-issue?

I believe that Revel does not embrace coaxial speakers to avoid modulation.
Obviously, both companies tout their designs strengths...

- Rich

I believe Revel does not have patent rights to KEF's propriety tech.
Same way many top waveguide and horn designs are patented by Harman/Revel/JBL
Most other companies use generic and simplistic waveguides.
Beyond intellectual property and patent crap - You pick your poison, there is not a perfect approach. Every design involves trade-offs give and take and a lot of bean counting thrown in.
There is no best.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I sense a lot of Anti DIY speaker stuff here at times.

Time spend and cost of tools does not matter when one is doing it for a HOBBY. I am not talking about building own version to put KEF out of business or to embarrass them.

By DIY, I mean guys that like (me included) to build speakers and measure them and build cabinets for fun. I am one, but simply find it a nice hobby, that is very cost effective the higher the priced speaker.

That is not a multi thousand dollar cabinet on the KEF.

I guess this forum, outside of a few outlier speakers, tends to focus on retail bought, which is fine.
Just be aware, that outside some truly unusual design, almost any retail speaker can be emulated at a far lower cost.

In addition to owning and testing quite a few retail products, I DIY for fun, like you.
I have not saved 1 single cent.
Not 1.
In fact I could buy absolutely fantastic speakers well beyond what my pay grade is, for the $, time and energy I have put into DIY.
DIY is only (imho) for folks who want to spend the time acquiring the skills, who enjoy the learning curves and experiencing all the in, outs, ups and downs.
I highly reccomend it if that sounds good.
Highly.
Otherwise no way.
Stay away.
Most folks would be overwhelmed, it would compete for valuable time doing something else and it would sour them on audio.
And that is just if they followed existing plans, now have them go at it from scratch - real DIY, designing from the G up.

Plus let's face it. You can not DIY a KEF clone without finding a source for those coaxial drivers
Now sources do exist but they are required
the off the shelf coaxial stuff is not in KEF's league.

As far as whether the cabinet on this speaker is a multithousand dollar value, with all due respect for a fellow DIY person you might need a business 101 here.
Do you realize how many people's livelihoods are invested in getting that unit to your home? And that isn't even really factoring how many people (sadly) along the way really are not even being paid fairly for their contributions.
Plus factor in how this money is "shared" within KEF's overall business and affects their capacity to successfully produce less expensive lines.

Anyway no way DIY and retail are competitors. Totally different worlds.

 

[BoredErica]

I sense a lot of Anti DIY speaker stuff here at times.

Time spend and cost of tools does not matter when one is doing it for a HOBBY. I am not talking about building own version to put KEF out of business or to embarrass them.

By DIY, I mean guys that like (me included) to build speakers and measure them and build cabinets for fun. I am one, but simply find it a nice hobby, that is very cost effective the higher the priced speaker.

That is not a multi thousand dollar cabinet on the KEF.

I guess this forum, outside of a few outlier speakers, tends to focus on retail bought, which is fine.
Just be aware, that outside some truly unusual design, almost any retail speaker can be emulated at a far lower cost.

If you want to find a way to replicate a KEF coaxial driver and do the measurements and make it look as good in terms of drivers and cabinet fit and finish be my guest. You think we don't know that people buying Reference series are paying a lot more than it costs to build it?

Most people who have speakers didn't make theirs. Neither do they want to. That should be obvious. You're occupying a niche of a niche of a niche here. I'd rather work a minimum wage job flipping burgers or mopping the floor than learn how to do it myself. If you scroll through any DIY speaker Amir reviewed I doubt you'll find people talking about how dumb DIYing is. It's when you interject with 'this speaker is overpriced because I can do it cheaper' on a Kef r4c no less then people raise an eyebrow.

 

[Tangband]

The Kef seems to be a good loudspeaker . For 7999 dollars.
The Genelec 8361 costs 4999 dollars and have amplifiers inside.
Direct comparison:

 

[BoredErica]

Genelec makes good products, no doubt about it. But every speaker they've ever made looks terrible imo. Whether you agree with my opinion and whether you care about how a speaker looks is up to you. No way am I spending $1000+ on speakers that look bad.

My best friend bought Genelec speakers because they don't care how their speakers look, so they saved money and got out ahead.

 

[sarumbear]

The Kef seems to be a good loudspeaker . For 7999 dollars.
The Genelec 8361 costs 4999 dollars and have amplifiers inside.
Direct comparison:
View attachment 180394View attachment 180395View attachment 180396View attachment 180397

KEF height: 20cm (8")
Genelec height: 36cm (14")

To me saving that extra height is worth the extra money.

 

[JD_Spoon]

KEF height: 20cm (8")
Genelec height: 36cm (14")

To me saving that extra height is worth the extra money.

Even more so when you consider that it's possible to get them for $5250 a speaker, rather than $7500. Assuming you're willing to accept the finish option and the possibility that what you're getting may be B-stock.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Those Genelecs just need to be about half price.

 

[beagleman]

I guess No one got my comment about DIYing this speaker.

It was meant to seem semi humorous, as if....."Hmmm...I wonder......." oh well, I get all the realities of building your own, and Retail for sure.

Last time I try to inject some humour...!

 

[pseudoid]

Last time I try to inject some humour...!

Do you know that joke with the punchline about "..it is not the joke that wasn't funny, ..."?
Next time, try to say it differently and compare results. winkin' back atcha!

 

[Ron Texas]

It's hard for me to love this speaker even though it has excellent measured performance. Perhaps I feel a center speaker doesn't need great bass, and great bass is what makes speakers more expensive. I also have trouble with the entire Reference series from a value point of view when compared to the R series.

None the less, thank you @amirm for the work that went into reviewing this speaker.

 

[exm]

It's hard for me to love this speaker even though it has excellent measured performance. Perhaps I feel a center speaker doesn't need great bass, and great bass is what makes speakers more expensive. I also have trouble with the entire Reference series from a value point of view when compared to the R series.

None the less, thank you @amirm for the work that went into reviewing this speaker.

That's why I feel the Reference 2C has great value.

 

[sarumbear]

It's hard for me to love this speaker even though it has excellent measured performance. Perhaps I feel a center speaker doesn't need great bass, and great bass is what makes speakers more expensive.

According to the specs for public and home theatre sound systems all front speakers must be full range. Also, if you search the forum you will see proof that centre channel normally have more bass information than other channels.

 

[Sancus]

I also have trouble with the entire Reference series from a value point of view when compared to the R series.

Expensive speakers rarely have much of a value proposition, it's more about knowing you're getting the best[at least if they measure well]. Some people are willing to pay a large premium for that. For those who aren't, that's OK too, and honestly, they're probably better off in the end Certainly their wallets are.

 

[pseudoid]

According to the specs for public and home theatre sound systems all front speakers must be full range. Also, if you search the forum you will see proof that centre channel normally have more bass information than other channels.

Sorry sarumbear; I am having a visualization problem with what you said [no: not the way you spell 'theatre' and 'centre']
Wouldn't what you say mandate that the center/centre be as large (WxHxD) as the L/R (edit: Left or Right)? And wouldn't that immediately fail the WAF; smack in the middle of the system?