• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Kef Reference 1 vs LS50M w subs

Descartes

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
2,104
Likes
1,077
Very true - would be interesting for someone to AB compare.
It’s puzzling with KEF they have one of the best speakers for money (R3 or LS50) at the same time their reference line is not much different still pretty much same technology just more premium finish for 6-7 times the price. And some people still dig it. For me it doesn’t have that premium presence enough nor sound difference to justify that cost. There better options for the money.
My sentiments exactly!
We are now talking Luxury Audio it is not value it is just to show off just like any LVMH bags sold at 1000 profit margins.
Also, they are hand built in the UK just like Rolls Royce.
Personally I would be fine if they were built in China like the LS50 meta or the others and drop the price in half at least, with the same quality!
 

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
My sentiments exactly!
We are now talking Luxury Audio it is not value it is just to show off just like any LVMH bags sold at 1000 profit margins.
Also, they are hand built in the UK just like Rolls Royce.
Personally I would be fine if they were built in China like the LS50 meta or the others and drop the price in half at least, with the same quality!
At least Royce is unique enough and it’s not just a badge - synonymous with top quality for a reason.
Hand crafted doesn’t matter if the end product is nearly the same looking as cheaper line. I mean if it was done from wood then Ok but these are same mdf cabinets - just slightly bigger. Finish nearly identical. Same shape. If you take Klipsch heritage speakers each is unique with different enough sound to justify your choice if you want to spend more - and you can see where your money goes - reference KEFs apart from being built in higher cost country not so much - imagine them being done with same tech in China - cost would drop probably 3x and more people would purchase them. I wouldn’t say fairly simple construction speakers justify this all done by hand approach to hike price so much. Not when they look and sound nearly identical to cheaper line. Wasted opportunity.
 

bo_knows

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 17, 2020
Messages
798
Likes
788
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
At least Royce is unique enough and it’s not just a badge - synonymous with top quality for a reason.
Hand crafted doesn’t matter if the end product is nearly the same looking as cheaper line. I mean if it was done from wood then Ok but these are same mdf cabinets - just slightly bigger. Finish nearly identical. Same shape. If you take Klipsch heritage speakers each is unique with different enough sound to justify your choice if you want to spend more - and you can see where your money goes - reference KEFs apart from being built in higher cost country not so much - imagine them being done with same tech in China - cost would drop probably 3x and more people would purchase them. I wouldn’t say fairly simple construction speakers justify this all done by hand approach to hike price so much. Not when they look and sound nearly identical to cheaper line. Wasted opportunity.
Why don't you sell the same idea to B&W, Focal, Dynaudio and etc.? All those European brands have more expensive counterparts to reference series. If you ship everything to China, what would be left of the original KEF heritage?
 

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
Why don't you sell the same idea to B&W, Focal, Dynaudio and etc.? All those European brands have more expensive counterparts to reference series. If you ship everything to China, what would be left of the original KEF heritage?
My point is not to move production to China but when you do it locally, make sure it stands out performance and appearance wise from your made in China lineup. Otherwise there is no point to pay 6-7x the price is there?
Btw I can’t fault my Chinese R3 build quality - flawless.
 

Great Egret

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2022
Messages
14
Likes
20
At least Royce is unique enough and it’s not just a badge - synonymous with top quality for a reason.
Hand crafted doesn’t matter if the end product is nearly the same looking as cheaper line. I mean if it was done from wood then Ok but these are same mdf cabinets - just slightly bigger. Finish nearly identical. Same shape. If you take Klipsch heritage speakers each is unique with different enough sound to justify your choice if you want to spend more - and you can see where your money goes - reference KEFs apart from being built in higher cost country not so much - imagine them being done with same tech in China - cost would drop probably 3x and more people would purchase them. I wouldn’t say fairly simple construction speakers justify this all done by hand approach to hike price so much. Not when they look and sound nearly identical to cheaper line. Wasted opportunity.
You do know a Rolls Royce is just a BMW engine with a luxury shell around it. They measure the exact same HP on the rear wheels :)
 

Skyro

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Messages
22
Likes
13
I believe the Reference line also has tighter tolerances for individual unit variability than the R series. How much tighter I have no idea but yeah there's that.
 

bo_knows

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 17, 2020
Messages
798
Likes
788
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
My point is not to move production to China but when you do it locally, make sure it stands out performance and appearance wise from your made in China lineup. Otherwise there is no point to pay 6-7x the price is there?
Btw I can’t fault my Chinese R3 build quality - flawless.
I got your point, not sure if you got mine. Why KEF should be cheaper than B&W, Focal, Dynaudio, and others with the product that has the same if not better performance?
 

Great Egret

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2022
Messages
14
Likes
20
I believe the Reference line also has tighter tolerances for individual unit variability than the R series. How much tighter I have no idea but yeah there's that.

I believe the Reference line also has tighter tolerances for individual unit variability than the R series. How much tighter I have no idea but yeah there's that.
Every pair is individualy measured and matched. You get the measurements in the box. See picture for my Ref 3's
 

Attachments

  • 20220209_212019556_iOS.jpg
    20220209_212019556_iOS.jpg
    191.4 KB · Views: 133

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
You do know a Rolls Royce is just a BMW engine with a luxury shell around it. They measure the exact same HP on the rear wheels :)
Well not exactly. It’s an engine made by BMW but only used in R&Rs. There isn’t any factory BMW with 6.7l v12 is there?
All other parts are custom made for Rolls as well. The end product is the best in class luxury and comfort. And they don’t have a cheap Chinese variant that offers similar luxury and comfort :)
 

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
Every pair is individualy measured and matched. You get the measurements in the box. See picture for my Ref 3's
The problem KEF has - their Uniq design is what differentiates them form other brands - and also they use it across the lineup from 1k speakers to 20k Blades. LF driver they do is not particularly impressive. Hence it’s a big issue how to differentiate your lineup. End result is all speakers sound very similar, especially if you add a subwoofer to address LF differences. LS50 metas with sub and you’ll get pretty much blade + sub performance.
On blind listening some people struggled to tell which is which between LS50 and blades .
Don’t know how other manufacturers differentiate but KEF has got a problem. If I would consider spending 6-7x more for speakers I want to be swiped off my feet visually and sonically. Otherwise it’s dubious expenditure.

Even though you get some extra computer measurements and speaker/ crossover matching - that is less relevant these days with people using Dirac for instance.
Rs or LS50 metas distortion is already tiny so question is whether we can actually tell the difference. Some might some probably won’t. Maybe all that is what probably results in this small difference between how R and reference sound. Less distortion on already small distortion.

It will be interesting to see if new updated reference will make a bigger difference compared to R line. If they did more improvements apart from getting new Uniq and metamaterial. Ideally I would like to see something new from KEF, not just riding on same design.
See for instance Focals as someone suggested.
Their lineups differ significantly between each other.
You have excellent Arias - with great performance and good price to value. You have high end utopias or kanta or sopras each in its own price range and interesting sculpture like appearance.
Reference for that price simply looks boring.
 

Great Egret

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2022
Messages
14
Likes
20
Well not exactly. It’s an engine made by BMW but only used in R&Rs. There isn’t any factory BMW with 6.7l v12 is there?
All other parts are custom made for Rolls as well. The end product is the best in class luxury and comfort. And they don’t have a cheap Chinese variant that offers similar luxury and comfort :)
The M760i en Rolls Royce ghost use the same V12
 

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
The M760i en Rolls Royce ghost use the same V12
That’s correct they used a variant of that engine in M760i but it was engine designed for R&Rs and in use from 2008 in their cars, with few variations created and produced till now, ending in 2023.
 

Great Egret

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2022
Messages
14
Likes
20
The problem KEF has - their Uniq design is what differentiates them form other brands - and also they use it across the lineup from 1k speakers to 20k Blades. LF driver they do is not particularly impressive. Hence it’s a big issue how to differentiate your lineup. End result is all speakers sound very similar, especially if you add a subwoofer to address LF differences. LS50 metas with sub and you’ll get pretty much blade + sub performance.
On blind listening some people struggled to tell which is which between LS50 and blades .
Don’t know how other manufacturers differentiate but KEF has got a problem. If I would consider spending 6-7x more for speakers I want to be swiped off my feet visually and sonically. Otherwise it’s dubious expenditure.

Even though you get some extra computer measurements and speaker/ crossover matching - that is less relevant these days with people using Dirac for instance.
Rs or LS50 metas distortion is already tiny so question is whether we can actually tell the difference. Some might some probably won’t. Maybe all that is what probably results in this small difference between how R and reference sound. Less distortion on already small distortion.

It will be interesting to see if new updated reference will make a bigger difference compared to R line. If they did more improvements apart from getting new Uniq and metamaterial. Ideally I would like to see something new from KEF, not just riding on same design.
See for instance Focals as someone suggested.
Their lineups differ significantly between each other.
You have excellent Arias - with great performance and good price to value. You have high end utopias or kanta or sopras each in its own price range and interesting sculpture like appearance.
Reference for that price simply looks boring.
That may be the case for you, but I do find it important where something is build, and has impeccable build-quality. To me speakers are more than sound, and for me KEF does everything right. Build in the UK, by someone who is proud of it and puts his name on it.
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
On blind listening some people struggled to tell which is which between LS50 and blades .
Can you point me to documentation of these blind tests? I maintain a thread here with blind test results, and this one is quite something.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
685
Likes
1,140
Location
Chicago, IL
The problem KEF has - their Uniq design is what differentiates them form other brands - and also they use it across the lineup from 1k speakers to 20k Blades. LF driver they do is not particularly impressive. Hence it’s a big issue how to differentiate your lineup. End result is all speakers sound very similar, especially if you add a subwoofer to address LF differences. LS50 metas with sub and you’ll get pretty much blade + sub performance.
On blind listening some people struggled to tell which is which between LS50 and blades .
Don’t know how other manufacturers differentiate but KEF has got a problem. If I would consider spending 6-7x more for speakers I want to be swiped off my feet visually and sonically. Otherwise it’s dubious expenditure.

Even though you get some extra computer measurements and speaker/ crossover matching - that is less relevant these days with people using Dirac for instance.
Rs or LS50 metas distortion is already tiny so question is whether we can actually tell the difference. Some might some probably won’t. Maybe all that is what probably results in this small difference between how R and reference sound. Less distortion on already small distortion.

It will be interesting to see if new updated reference will make a bigger difference compared to R line. If they did more improvements apart from getting new Uniq and metamaterial. Ideally I would like to see something new from KEF, not just riding on same design.
See for instance Focals as someone suggested.
Their lineups differ significantly between each other.
You have excellent Arias - with great performance and good price to value. You have high end utopias or kanta or sopras each in its own price range and interesting sculpture like appearance.
Reference for that price simply looks boring.

Quite a bit of misinformation in this post. KEF uses the UniQ in all their speakers but the ones used in the Q series are nothing like the ones in the Reference. I'm not sure I would say their low frequency drivers aren't impressive either, the R3 has better bass performance and distortion numbers than most 6" drivers I've seen measured here and the Reference Ones are even more impressive from a single driver(and large cabinet). Moving from the Q to the R to the Reference series is a very clear upgrade in sound and build quality(with diminishing returns of course) so not sure I agree with your opinion about that.

I don't really like the Blades myself and prefer LS50 high passed at 100-120Hz +a good sub system but your example of not being able to tell them apart in listening tests would only be at moderate listening levels as the Blades can play much louder with lower distortion. They are also unique and exotic looking which many people are willing to pay for.
 

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
Quite a bit of misinformation in this post. KEF uses the UniQ in all their speakers but the ones used in the Q series are nothing like the ones in the Reference.
Was referring to R line. Yes Q is different with older Uniq design and the difference is apparent.
I'm not sure I would say their low frequency drivers aren't impressive either, the R3 has better bass performance and distortion numbers than most 6" drivers I've seen measured here and the Reference Ones are even more impressive from a single driver(and large cabinet).
As 6” inch perhaps but you have speakers with 8” or even 15”. As far as low frequency goes not that special.
Moving from the Q to the R to the Reference series is a very clear upgrade in sound and build quality(with diminishing returns of course) so not sure I agree with your opinion about that.
Yes I agree. I was discussing R vs reference and astonishing price difference there.
I don't really like the Blades myself and prefer LS50 high passed at 100-120Hz +a good sub system but your example of not being able to tell them apart in listening tests would only be at moderate listening levels as the Blades can play much louder with lower distortion. They are also unique and exotic looking which many people are willing to pay for.
Yes louder they can but it won’t matter in typical listening where you don’t go above 90db. I don’t exceed 85db personally
 
Last edited:

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,337
Likes
7,733
Hi

This is a case where listening habits, protocols and personal preference could (should?) be the deciding factors.
I am making some inferences here. reaching. The LS 50 meta has a very high score of 7.7 (!) with subwoofer. It seems however very unhappy at 96 dB, distorting seriously, i would think it would sound not great at those level but if you were to keep the SPL under 90 dB and with subs? The combo may be preferable to the R1 in that light.
I wouldn't go for Kef expensive microsub52, LS50 Meta plus pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro (those are 13 inches cubes after all, that is small in my book), could be a very good system, one, perhaps, many might prefer to the Ref 1 alone (No Sub).. and that for around $3000, that is a compelling proposition...

Speaking for myself. I'd go toward a R3 + Pair of SB-1000 Pro subs rather than the Ref 1 alone.
 
Last edited:

Daka

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
212
Hi

This is a case where listening habits, protocols and personal preference could (should?) be the deciding factors.
I am making some inferences here. reaching. The LS 50 meta has a very high score of 7.7 (!) with subwoofer. It seems however very unhappy at 96 dB though, distorting seriously, i would think it would sound not great at those level but if you were to keep the SPL under 90 dB and with subs? It may be preferable to the R1 in that light.
I wouldn't go for the Kef expensive microsub52, I would say this LS50 Meta plus pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro (those are 13 inches cubes after all, that is small in my book), could be a very good system one, perhaps, many might prefer to the Ref 1 alone (No Sub).. and that for around $3000, that is a compelling proposition...

Speaking for myself. I'd go toward a R3 + Pair of SB-1000 Pro subs rather than the Ref 1 alone.
Even going with kc62 - two of them still nearly half price compared to R1. And this statement presents obvious problem here with reference.
Doesn’t offer anything uniquely enough to justify high price.
People who love the company and can afford will obviously go with reference. Blades are in another level beyond of reach for vast majority.
Personally would pick one of the amazingly looking and performing focals. Thats what my expectation would be when spending 10k anyway. Little piece of art that kicks you off your socks not just little bit better here and there.
 

Descartes

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
2,104
Likes
1,077
Why don't you sell the same idea to B&W, Focal, Dynaudio and etc.? All those European brands have more expensive counterparts to reference series. If you ship everything to China, what would be left of the original KEF heritage?
If you look at B&W they use very different boxes for their 800 series and you can see where the money goes!

With KEF the Reference series is still MDF not even HDF and definitely not as much engineering differences with the R series.

FYI I own many KEF LS50!
 
Top Bottom