The ATC domes are some of the best drivers I’ve personally ever used or heard.
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KEF R3 Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
The ATC domes are some of the best drivers I’ve personally ever used or heard.
Let's remember to put more weight on the measurements than listening tests. The fact that Amir preferred the Revel is his truth, one listener's truth. Informed by measurements sure, but that doesn't eliminate his preferences, biases, and the individual testing conditions that led to his preferences.
I restate that the preference formula has an 86 percent accuracy and was based on multiple listeners. The M16 and R3 are simply each too good a speaker with close enough measurement performance to make the impressions of one listener carry so much weight. Someone calculated that a speaker needs to be 1.6 points ahead of another for a 95 percent confidence it will be preferred these are within that window.
I'd also suggest not being too concerned about personal biases. I've been writing reviews professionally for a good 6 years now, and well before that on forums. One of the first things I learned is that bias does not go away, and that being accurate, fair, and objective is not the same as being unbiased.
I can make my major biases known and be fair in testing, but I can't presume to eliminate bias in anything written. If I try to counteract my bias too much, then I'm just coloring my results another way; over the years I've been quite often accused of being a fanboy of companies I don't like and of being a hater of companies I do like. It's part of the reason I began to do measurements with speakers; regardless of my preferences, the data is objective and revealing enough for anyone to make their own interpretations.
That's not to say I don't think the subjective impressions are useful though; they inform you of a particular listener's preferences and listening conditions and can help you make decisions if you see particular similarities or differences with Amir's setup and preferences. They can also help reveal qualities that may not be obvious in the measurements, which we can then leave for further investigation. But we are primarily here for the measurements, not the panthers
The subjective reviews are all out there and you can choose to tie those with the data where you see fit.
I restate that the preference formula has an 86 percent accuracy and was based on multiple listeners. The M16 and R3 are simply each too good a speaker with close enough measurement performance to make the impressions of one listener carry so much weight. Someone calculated that a speaker needs to be 1.6 points ahead of another for a 95 percent confidence it will be preferred these are within that window.
I'd also suggest not being too concerned about personal biases. I've been writing reviews professionally for a good 6 years now, and well before that on forums. One of the first things I learned is that bias does not go away, and that being accurate, fair, and objective is not the same as being unbiased.
I can make my major biases known and be fair in testing, but I can't presume to eliminate bias in anything written. If I try to counteract my bias too much, then I'm just coloring my results another way; over the years I've been quite often accused of being a fanboy of companies I don't like and of being a hater of companies I do like. It's part of the reason I began to do measurements with speakers; regardless of my preferences, the data is objective and revealing enough for anyone to make their own interpretations.
That's not to say I don't think the subjective impressions are useful though; they inform you of a particular listener's preferences and listening conditions and can help you make decisions if you see particular similarities or differences with Amir's setup and preferences. They can also help reveal qualities that may not be obvious in the measurements, which we can then leave for further investigation. But we are primarily here for the measurements, not the panthers
The subjective reviews are all out there and you can choose to tie those with the data where you see fit.
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Lao Lu
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Still in hunkering down here in Beijing...I agree with you but I would prefer to phrase it differently....
ROOSKIE
Major Contributor
Lets remember to put more weight on the measurements than listening tests. The fact that Amir preferred the Revel is his truth, one listener's truth. Informed by measurements sure, but that doesn't eliminate his preferences, biases, and the individual testing conditions that led to his preferences.
I restate that the preference formula has an 84 percent accuracy and was based on multiple listeners. The M16 and R3 are simply each too good a speakers with close enough measurements to make the impressions of one listener carry so much weight. Someone calculated that a speaker needs to be 1.6 points ahead of another for a 95 percent confidence it will be preferred.
I'd also suggest not being too concerned about personal biases. I've been writing reviews professionally for a good 6 years now, and well before that on forums. One of the first things I learned is that bias does not go away, and that being accurate, fair, and objective is not the same as being unbiased.
I can make my major biases known and be fair in testing, but I can't presume to eliminate bias in anything written. If I try to counteract my bias too much, then I'm just coloring my results another way; over the years I've been quite often accused of being a fanboy of companies I don't like and of being a hater of companies I do like. It's part of the reason I began to do measurements with speakers; regardless of my preferences, the data is objective and revealing enough for anyone to make their own interpretations.
That's not to say I don't think the subjective impressions are useful though; they inform you of a particular listener's preferences and listening conditions and can help you make decisions if you see particular similarities or differences with Amir's setup and preferences. They can also help reveal qualities that may not be obvious in the measurements, which we can then leave for further investigation. But we are primarily here for the measurements, not the panthers
Hey, love your reviews. Seriously very well done on that end.
Between the R3 and the Chora 906, I have the impression you might have preferred the Focal. Any thoughts or further comparison you'd care to/be willing to make here?
I am really interested, thank you!
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Lets remember to put more weight on the measurements than listening tests. The fact that Amir preferred the Revel is his truth, one listener's truth. Informed by measurements sure, but that doesn't eliminate his preferences, biases, and the individual testing conditions that led to his preferences.
I restate that the preference formula has an 84 percent accuracy and was based on multiple listeners. The M16 and R3 are simply each too good a speakers with close enough measurements to make the impressions of one listener carry so much weight. Someone calculated that a speaker needs to be 1.6 points ahead of another for a 95 percent confidence it will be preferred.
I'd also suggest not being too concerned about personal biases. I've been writing reviews professionally for a good 6 years now, and well before that on forums. One of the first things I learned is that bias does not go away, and that being accurate, fair, and objective is not the same as being unbiased.
I can make my major biases known and be fair in testing, but I can't presume to eliminate bias in anything written. If I try to counteract my bias too much, then I'm just coloring my results another way; over the years I've been quite often accused of being a fanboy of companies I don't like and of being a hater of companies I do like. It's part of the reason I began to do measurements with speakers; regardless of my preferences, the data is objective and revealing enough for anyone to make their own interpretations.
That's not to say I don't think the subjective impressions are useful though; they inform you of a particular listener's preferences and listening conditions and can help you make decisions if you see particular similarities or differences with Amir's setup and preferences. They can also help reveal qualities that may not be obvious in the measurements, which we can then leave for further investigation. But we are primarily here for the measurements, not the panthers
Well said. My only criticism is I think whether or not Amir recommends a speaker should have very little to do with the subjective listening test(unless it's done blind). Right now it seems like the measurements have very little influence on whether or not he recommends the speaker. Compare the reviews of the JBL 705 to the Kef Q100. The JBL measures worse, and costs 5x as much, but gets a much more positive listening test result and therefore gets recommended. That said, I probably would agree with Amir as I'm 99% sure I'd rather have the JBL than the Kef based on my listening distance and desired spls.
Thanks! I did not get to hear them side by side, but I have mentioned on ASR several times that I have a clear subjective preference for speakers on the wider directivity side of the spectrum. So yes, I think I would personally choose the Chora over the R3 if crossing with a sub, though I'm not sure I'd recommend the Chora over the R3 if cost is not a big concern. I know I like the Chora more based on my own preferences, but I'm not so sure about the average person.
My other bias here: I'm a sucker for blue
. If KEF comes out with an R3 with blue drivers, ask me again...
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I'm sure it will become slower paced eventually but I'm personally not worried about 1 persons subjective impressions of speakers, the measurements are the truly valuable part of what he's doing. I would say the burden is on us if we want to do the kind of testing you and others are proposing. One example is I took home the R3 a few months back to compare to my LS50 and actually preferred the LS50 within their limits. I thought there was something a bit harsh about the R3 that were fatiguing me fairly quickly but the 3rd party measurements weren't clear what I could EQ to fix that. Now that we have the Klippel spin it actually makes me want to try them again now that I have the info to make good PEQ filters that should tame the harshness. My point is Amir is giving us very useful information that we can use to make these speakers even better with EQ or to compare them ourselves to start testing the measurements and preference ratings.
ROOSKIE
Major Contributor
I am personally not suspicious of you at all. I glean form your writings here that honesty and transparency is very important to you. Bias is out of your control though. Thing about it is that by it's very definition and nature that you simply can not control it. If one could control it then it wouldn't be an issue, it is an issue because it is in very large part involuntary.
Certainly some people have much more of a tendency toward bias than others. I don't know how much of a tendency toward bias you have - you may have very little. You might also have much more than you believe, even if you are working hard to be fair. It really is a odd subject indeed.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #129
It has been a remarkable thing in how the community trusts me with their gear. I guess the fact that 300+ pieces of gear has changed hands and not one person has complained about losses, says something.
I and I am sure the community sure appreciates the trust. It has allowed us to do something quite unique than others who are dependent on manufacturer loans.ROOSKIE
Major Contributor
Ha! Thanks! I deff got that you like the blue drivers and cabinet from your review. I like the blue drivers a lot as well. I would likely go with the black cabinet though.Thanks! I did not get to hear them side by side, but I have mentioned on ASR several times that I have a clear subjective preference for speakers on the wider directivity side of the spectrum. So yes, I think I would personally choose the Chora over the R3 if crossing with a sub, though I'm sure I'd recommend the R3 over the Chora if cost is not a big concern.
My bias here: I'm a sucker for blue
Cost is a factor but not the main concern. Wider directivity often works well for me as I very often sit with my GF so the potentially wider sweet spot is always nice. Anyway I appreciate the response.
Great review and really helpful subjective input from someone that trusts the scientific method.
As much as I enjoy seeing loudspeaker measurements, at the end of the day, anechoic response may not translate to subjective favorable sound. For me, I like how my speakers interact with my room to produce music that I enjoy. I have tried equalizing it to get a flat response, but I do not like it. I like what my room does to the base and low midrange. Small frequency differences in this range result in huge subjective perception of sound and timber.
I would personally like to see how loudspeakers deal with high voltage input transients. Meaning can they handle the dynamic range without much compression and distortion. In my subjective experience, this particular aspect about loudspeakers plays a very important role in enjoying music as if presented live.
As much as I enjoy seeing loudspeaker measurements, at the end of the day, anechoic response may not translate to subjective favorable sound. For me, I like how my speakers interact with my room to produce music that I enjoy. I have tried equalizing it to get a flat response, but I do not like it. I like what my room does to the base and low midrange. Small frequency differences in this range result in huge subjective perception of sound and timber.
I would personally like to see how loudspeakers deal with high voltage input transients. Meaning can they handle the dynamic range without much compression and distortion. In my subjective experience, this particular aspect about loudspeakers plays a very important role in enjoying music as if presented live.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #132
I really do. So much of what you all want can be trusted to an assistant. Heck, with speaker measurements, all the work can be done, sans analysis by someone else. I spend so much time also boxing, labeling, and shipping stuff.
Importantly, I could also use some foot massage at times. And back rub.....
haha
For each of amirm's acoustic analyze you can find some of the directivity eye candy in MZKM's preference score list if you use link button in the first colonne https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml#
More advanced eye candy you asked for as hor/ver reflections points is avaiable in edechamps loudspeaker explorer https://colab.research.google.com/g...dspeaker_Explorer.ipynb#scrollTo=BTZVC63nDGZB
Probably time to move the savage across the pond and make him earn his keep.
How are you generating these stunning visualizations man? Very impressive!
I agree to a large extent - thing is though that not many of ASR members may have access to multiple well measuring, high-end samples. Plus the lucky ones who do AND are willing to do the work need to have a level of understanding to property interpret the data AND need to be trained listeners.
Know what I'm saying? Seems to me the herd thins very quickly and Amir seems very uniquely situated and talented to do the Lord's work.
Not sure what you mean. I have DIY speakers with active crossovers, and have tried everything, literally! I can tell you one thing though. These visualizations came when I connected high powered clean amplifiers to quality transducers directly. There is no going back!
I'll second that. I tri-amp'd a system I ran for some years and it was very dynamic and so adjustable I loved it. Peeps would come over and think Neil Peart from RUSH was in the room
I have no doubts barring some catastrophe of course. I was just making light of my situation Amir.It has been a remarkable thing in how the community trusts me with their gear. I guess the fact that 300+ pieces of gear has changed hands and not one person has complained about losses, says something.
I'm sure your setup is phenomenal. =)
I think you misunderstood though. I was commenting on the dynamic graphs @BYRTT generated using the speaker data Amir provided.
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