Dr Toole sure is a great guy, but I don't think one should use his living room as an example of anything ideal.Btw, I just looked at a photos of Toole's and @amirm room and that is not how their speakers are positioned. Have they no clue how it should be or their speakers are not directional enough?
Where did you get that information?
These are from the Kef manuals:
Because that way one listens more to the direct sound than to the reflections.
though they don't mention widening the sweetspot specifically, but that's pretty much the only reason you would toe in the speakers in front of you.Yeah. I mean, on some wider designs toeing them in just a little in front of the my listening position can work, but I find it usually just makes the soundstage too diffuse. In any case, in my home several feat doesn't work. Usually about 1 foot in front of me is enough. Really just depends on your setup and the distance to your sidewalls.
The D&D 8c is probably the speaker that's sounded the best using this technique. Unsurprisingly, it is also the truest constant directivity design I've tested. D&D does acknowledge this technique as an option in the manual, by the way
HSU and Geddes(when he was selling speakers) both recommend extreme toe in (that's just fun to say), I believe. Most manufacturers probably do not because it's aesthetically atrocious in most cases and I agree lol.
Anyway, KEF's manual needs proofing for clarity. The above image you posted is specifically intended for 5.1 placement (it says 5.1 below the image). It is nothing specific to KEF, and is in fact literally just the exact angles/setup provided by Dolby for 5.1 audio.
In the same manual shows this:
View attachment 66641More specifically on two or three separate occasions I've asked KEF engineers/reps about positioning. The one I have in writing went like this, which I asked while reviewing the R3s:
Me: "Does KEF recommend toeing the R3s in? I know with previous speakers they've been designed to sound good off axis, but the manual for the R3 shows both positions, so I thought I'd check. "
Them: "...with the Uni-Q, KEF speakers will produce an extremely wide sound stage without any toe-in. Depending on certain variables like room acoustics and setup, some toe-in may help enhance sound reproduction in the main listening spot, but for all but the most extreme room conditions, toe-in is likely not necessary. We show it both ways so the end-user knows they have a choice for setup. " [Emphasis mine]
From a few conversations with manufacturers, it's clear engineers don't tend to design the manuals. They will proofread it, but they might miss things or confusing parts. Same happened to me with JBL where the engineer provided different advice than the manual. They then fixed the manual
Note that wider soundstage and wider sweet spot are not the same thing. While I had some luck with extreme toe in in my old place, in my current home it tends to just sound like a more diffuse soundstage with a bigger sweet spot, but not necessarily a bigger soundstage in the way wide dispersion speakers provide. I think this is because the soundstage gets a bit compressed by the opposite wall reflections.
None atm
. Too many speakers to test and my apartment is just one big room, so I basically only listen to whatever I'm testing.None atm
Ok, I see.
In that case let me rephrase the question: which ones you liked the most so far (leaving out the exotics like D&D 8C)?
Ahh, those! Interesting choice.. Did they have orange grill?
Ahh, yes - I forgot about that.
. I'm also testing the upcoming JBL L82. I refuse to review them if they don't send the blue.
Grimm Audio recommends for their great engineered loudspeakers (also by Bruno Putzeys) 45° toe-in in front of the listener and setup them like that in audio shows and give a third interesting reason why:
The LS1 cabinet is wider than usual, so the effect of turning the loudspeaker around its
vertical axis is larger than you would expect. We can use this to our advantage since the
off-axis response of the LS1 is extremely even. The LS1 sounds just as good slightly
off-axis as on-axis. In the classic arrangement the loudspeaker faces the listener. The
angle of the loudspeakers relative to the wall behind them is 30 degrees. The superb
off-axis performance of the LS1 offers an alternative setup where both loudspeakers are
turned slightly further inward, or „toe in“. We advice an angle to the wall of 45 degrees.
The listener then sits at 15 degrees off-axis of the loudspeakers.
This setup has three advantages:
1. For seats left or right of the sweet spot, the stereo image is better preserved. The
reason is that for a left seat the sound of the left loudspeaker will reach the ear more
early. This causes a shift to the left in the stereo image. But at the same time, the listener
is more on-axis of the right speaker and more off-axis of the left speaker. The right
loudspeaker therefore becomes slightly louder and the image shifts to the right again.
It is not perfect, but the net effect is a wider area to enjoy a nice stereo image.
2. The reflection of the left loudspeakers‘ sound to the left wall and vice versa becomes
attenuated a bit. Since this reflection path is usually relatively short, it needs to be
attenuated to not interfere with the stereo image. An easy trick to check if this reflection
is too loud is to listen to a mono sound on one loudspeaker only. Close your eyes and
point in the direction of the sound. Now open your eyes again and look at your finger. If
it is pointing towards the center of the loudspeaker everything is fine. If you point a little
bit off-center in the direction of the wall, the reflection is too loud. If turning the LS1‘s
toe-in does not cure the problem, you will need to apply acoustic absorption at the reflective
spots. Mark that by turning the left LS1 like this, its reflection to the right wall will
become louder. Usually this is not a problem because this reflection comes later. Psycho
acoustics says it can even help to extract the ‚ambience‘ information from the recording.
3. It offers a lower distortion. All drivers suffer from a distortion called ‚cone break up‘.
The Seas woofer we selected has a very high break up frequency of 4 kHz. This is far
above the cross-over frequency of 1.5 kHz so the in band sound is not affected by it.
A loudspeaker however is never free of distortion. The third harmonic of 1kHz is at 4 kHz
and this distortion component will be amplified a bit by the cone break up. Since 4 kHz is
a very high frequency for a large woofer, it is radiated as a narrow beam. We measured a
significant drop in distortion around 4 k
Source: https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1079/ls1_manual_en_v2_1.pdf
Unfortunately I cannot get used to the look of highly toed in loudspeaskers myself though.
