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KEF R3, in this case R11 midrange flare vs frequency response

gags11

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#1
I apologize to create this new thread about this. There has been information and measurements that showed KEF R3 1.3Khz dip was caused by the plastic flare not being flush or pushed in to place.

I just wanted to show how too much, may be not a good thing, even though he or she may disagree, lol.

After reading the threads and looking at my own measurements, I noticed the dip at around 1.3Khz. Noticed the plastic flare was a bit out, so I pushed it in. I felt it went in too much. So Decided to measure the flare slightly more pushed in vs flush. Predictable, but still satisfying.

1. Midrange plastic flare pushed in a bit too much.
Screen Shot 2021-02-18 at 11.14.45 PM.png



2. Plastic flare flush

Screen Shot 2021-02-18 at 11.15.08 PM.png


PS: This is an in-room response with no EQ, but with a Rhythmic sub. Also notice the effect on treble, interesting.
BTY, remember that the original problem was the opposite, the flare is out too much, and there is a dip.
 
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eyes-on-you

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#2
I apologize to create this new thread about this. There has been information and measurements that showed KEF R3 1.3Khz dip was caused by the plastic flare not being flush or pushed in to place.

I just wanted to show how too much, may be not a good thing, even though he or she may disagree, lol.

After reading the threads and looking at my own measurements, I noticed the dip at around 1.3Khz. Noticed the plastic flare was a bit out, so I pushed it in. I felt it went in too much. So Decided to measure the flare slightly more pushed in vs flush. Predictable, but still satisfying.

1. Midrange plastic flare pushed in a bit too much.
View attachment 113490


2. Plastic flare flush

View attachment 113491

PS: This is an in-room response with no EQ, but with a Rhythmic sub. Also notice the effect on treble, interesting.
BTY, remember that the original problem was the opposite, the flare is out too much, and there is a dip.
Thank you for sharing valuable measurements but i wonder your preference?

What is the best for your subjective listening test?

I’m the R7 owner and i push it too much. (Before i push, shadow flare flush with the speaker cabinet) After this, i feel highs recessed a bit.

In addition; flush means shadow flare is same level with the midrange membrane or the speaker cabinet?
 
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napilopez

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#4
Thank you for sharing valuable measurements but i wonder your preference?

What is the best for your subjective listening test?

I’m the R7 owner and i push it too much. (Before i push, shadow flare flush with the speaker cabinet) After this, i feel highs recessed a bit.

In addition; flush means shadow flare is same level with the midrange membrane or the speaker cabinet?
@hardisj measured this with high precision. The flare should be flush with the midrange membrane, not the cabinet. it should be about 0.5mm set into the cabinet.

1621976806228.png


You can see that both flush with the cabinet and sticking out from the cabinet cause a dip circa 1kHz. You can also see it has very little effect on the highs, the only difference being a slight (less than 1dB) shift from 1.8k-3.5kHz. It's possible this is audible but surely the dip at 1kHz is much more so.
 

eyes-on-you

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#5
@hardisj measured this with high precision. The flare should be flush with the midrange membrane, not the cabinet. it should be about 0.5mm set into the cabinet.

View attachment 131957

You can see that both flush with the cabinet and sticking out from the cabinet cause a dip circa 1kHz. You can also see it has very little effect on the highs, the only difference being a slight (less than 1dB) shift from 1.8k-3.5kHz. It's possible this is audible but surely the dip at 1kHz is much more so.
I e-mailed to ask KEF and Ron revert me that shadow flare should be as flush as the edge of the cabinet. This ensures a seamless flow UMF/HF into the listening area without diffraction according to him.

I can’t understand Ron suggestion clearly. Correct position is too much push? If it is, there is a lip between the cabinet and shadow flare when i push it too much.
 

napilopez

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#6
I e-mailed to ask KEF and Ron revert me that shadow flare should be as flush as the edge of the cabinet. This ensures a seamless flow UMF/HF into the listening area without diffraction according to him.

I can’t understand Ron suggestion clearly. Correct position is too much push? If it is, there is a lip between the cabinet and shadow flare when i push it too.
Yes, according to hardisj's measurements that is correct. This is because it is likely more important to ensure seamless transition between the midrange and the shadowflare than it is to ensure a seamless transition between the flare and the cabinet.

It's up to you, and if you have microphone you could measure yourself, but the data is clear
 

eyes-on-you

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#7
Yes, according to hardisj's measurements that is correct. This is because it is likely more important to ensure seamless transition between the midrange and the shadowflare than it is to ensure a seamless transition between the flare and the cabinet.

It's up to you, and if you have microphone you could measure yourself, but the data is clear
I don’t have mic yet.

Did you check first post? What do you think about which one better?

I’m not an expert but i think second graph better than the first one. So i think try to little push back SF.
 

napilopez

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#8
I don’t have mic yet.

Did you check first post? What do you think about which one better?

I’m not an expert but i think second graph better than the first one. So i think try to little push back SF.
Will all respect to @gags11, that measurement is not high resolution enough to make a meaningful assessment about which is better -- only that the second measurement has less midrange energy than the first.

You can try both ways, but hardisj's data is anechoic and much more high resolution than the OPs. You shouldn't trust an in-room measurement over an anechoic one, especially without knowing how it was measured.

For clarity, here are the OPs two measurements overlayed:
R3 measurements.jpg
 
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gags11

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Thread Starter #9
Can you do an overlay of both on one chart?
It's easier to see the difference then.
Here you go.

These are all in-room measurements from the listening position about 5 meters away. These definitely will be different from anechoic measurements.

KEF R11 midrage flare positions overlay.png
 
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gags11

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Thread Starter #10
Thank you for sharing valuable measurements but i wonder your preference?

What is the best for your subjective listening test?

I’m the R7 owner and i push it too much. (Before i push, shadow flare flush with the speaker cabinet) After this, i feel highs recessed a bit.

In addition; flush means shadow flare is same level with the midrange membrane or the speaker cabinet?

I think the flush position is better to my ears, but I have not done any true A/B comparison to know for sure. You can see that the treble is also effected when the flare is pushed too much in.
 

napilopez

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#11
I think the flush position is better to my ears, but I have not done any true A/B comparison to know for sure. You can see that the treble is also effected when the flare is pushed too much in.
It's been a while since I tested the KEF R3, butby too much in, how far is that? I know hardisj had said optimal was 0.5mm in, but I guess one would also have to assume KEFs tolerances are that precise too.
 
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gags11

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Thread Starter #12
It's been a while since I tested the KEF R3, butby too much in, how far is that? I know hardisj had said optimal was 0.5mm in, but I guess one would also have to assume KEFs tolerances are that precise too.
It is really hard to get this thing truly flush. However, I think the too much in position was at least 1mm in too much.
 
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gags11

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Thread Starter #14
My data clearly indicates the flare should be pushed all the way in so it aligns with the midrange cone, at which point means it wouldn’t align flush with the baffle. Kef verified that. To me, that’s pretty much the end of the story.
Thanks for your input. Quality control must be really bad as the flares on my speakers were further out than the baffle.

Either way, far field measurements in my room look better with the flare flush with the baffle, not the cone. This is then likely caused by my room itself.
 

McFly

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#15
To be fair to KEF, the flares are held in with rubber compression sockets, and I would bet big money these would work themselves out naturally being shipped all over the world, even vibrate out over time.

The flare should be flush with the midrange membrane, not the cabinet. it should be about 0.5mm set into the cabinet.
Also this - quoted again in case you didn't read
 
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