KEF R series (2018) vs REFERENCE(2014?!)

[ahofer]

or banned

Surprised it got this far

 

[RustyGates]

They are not bad, but objectively reference 3 has no performance improvement that’s audible over r11. They are very very similar from graphs. Even though driver configuration is not same.

You can't just look at a bunch of frequency response curves and think they sound the same.

 

[tecnogadget]

You can't just look at a bunch of frequency response curves and think they sound the same.

Nevertheless his point is still valid. There is a bigger different departing from Q series to R series, than comparing R series to The Reference line. The diminishing return rules can’t be changed.

I wouldn’t say the difference between the two aint audible. But is very difficult to proof that the percentage increase in price tag follows the percentage in gained performance, IMHO simply impossible.

This isn’t a bad or a good thing, just the result of a marketing mix, production costs and profits, basically a corporate strategy that is quite widespread among most of the players in the hifi scene.

You got different line ups for different clients, and that’s it. Every user segment will fit into their different series of products.

 

[bo_knows]

Nevertheless his point is still valid. There is a bigger different departing from Q series to R series, than comparing R series to The Reference line. The diminishing return rules can’t be changed.

I wouldn’t say the difference between the two aint audible. But is very difficult to proof that the percentage increase in price tag follows the percentage in gained performance, IMHO simply impossible.

This isn’t a bad or a good thing, just the result of a marketing mix, production costs and profits, basically a corporate strategy that is quite widespread among most of the players in the hifi scene.

You got different line ups for different clients, and that’s it. Every user segment will fit into their different series of products.

Erin from Erin's audio corner has hinted on YouTube that he's got a new KEF Reference 1 meta speaker at his place and I assume he will measure it soon.
Once he's done, we will be able to compare his previous measurements of KEF R3 vs the new Reference Meta, along with his subjective opinion.
I'm looking forward to his measurements and comments.

 

[Crosstalk]

You can't just look at a bunch of frequency response curves and think they sound the same.

Same brand and almost similar directivity, they should sound similar. Atleast thats what I learned from here..

 

[Crosstalk]

Erin from Erin's audio corner has hinted on YouTube that he's got a new KEF Reference 1 meta speaker at his place and I assume he will measure it soon.
Once he's done, we will be able to compare his previous measurements of KEF R3 vs the new Reference Meta, along with his subjective opinion.
I'm looking forward to his measurements and comments.

what is interesting would be the non meta Reference 1 vs R3 as both of them doesnt have meta material.

 

[itz_all_about_the_music]

Reference series came up in 2014 if m not wrong. Then in 2018 came up the current R series. Looking at the measurements, it looks like both are flat enough. I have not seen dircetivity measurements of Reference Series.

But from a technological standpoint isn’t R series more advanced as it would have incorporated whatever kef found between 2014 and 2018? Reference line never got an update if I am not wrong. Also no shadow flare on reference if m not wrong. So, can’t we safely say R11 is the best speaker out of KEFs square box design speakers ? I couldn’t find any flaw whatsoever on the R11. Is there any reason now still to conosder a reference series over the R in 2022?

One of the goals of a product development/manufacturing organization is to make a new product cheaper than in the past with equal, or perhaps better, performance. Margins are all about investment and finally piece price. Remember, they're in business to make Sterling, not necessarily to make audio nirvana.

 

[NADKEF listener]

Looking for new speakers to replace my R900 to match my new NAD M23. The R11 pair is now €3998 and the Ref 3 (2014) only €5950. What to choose? listening mostly to music like Max Richter, Johann Johannsson and Philip Glass.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Looking for new speakers to replace my R900 to match my new NAD M23. The R11 pair is now €3998 and the Ref 3 (2014) only €5950. What to choose? listening mostly to music like Max Richter, Johann Johannsson and Philip Glass.

The ref3 is new? If the answer if yes go for it

 

[NADKEF listener]

The ref3 is new? If the answer if yes go for it

Yes, but the version with the metal front, only.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Yes, but the version with the metal front, only.

Post pics back

 

[NADKEF listener]

My room is a bit of a challenge. 7x10 meter with the stereo in the corner. Got extra discount for the R11, only €3,289 for the pair. I am very satisfied, these fill the room with balanced HF and LF. NAD M23 pairs really well. Now waiting for the M13 to replace my C658.

 

[HeadDoc12]

My room is a bit of a challenge. 7x10 meter with the stereo in the corner. Got extra discount for the R11, only €3,289 for the pair. I am very satisfied, these fill the room with balanced HF and LF. NAD M23 pairs really well. Now waiting for the M13 to replace my C658.View attachment 220721

M13? Do you know something I don't? If that is a real product coming soon, that sounds like a solid plan. However, if you're just hoping NAD releases something like that, why not spring for the M33, and have a nice 1400 watt system?

 

[sfdoddsy]

Reference series date like any other speaker.

A while back the R3 were my main speakers. I'd always wanted a set of 201/2 Reference (fabulous measurements in Stereophile) and when a cheapish pair came up I grabbed them and compared both side by side. Subjectively and objectively.

I can't find my REW measurements but have attached my Anthem ARC room correction ones. REW was obviously more detailed, but overall they are similar. These are in room from the listening position. ARC was applied below 500Hz, but the red line shows the raw response.

The 201/2 measures more neutral through the midrange with similar bass extension and slightly more rolled off treble.

I'm a big proponent of measurements and normally they match or explain what I am hearing.

Not in this case though.

To my ears the R3 went notably deeper. I could easily listen to the R3s without a sub. With the 201/2s I was always itching to turn the subs back on.

Despite the measurements the R3 sounded warmer than the 201/2s overall. I suspect that is the purpose of the upper mid dip.

Dispersion felt wider and more even with the R3s. I slump while listening and whilst both were very good vertically (much better than standard 3 ways) the R3 was more forgiving to flopping.

The R3 will play as loud as any sane person could ask. The Refs would play even louder without turning strident.

To my surprise I preferred the R3 overall, although the 201/2 was as advertised. I think there is a difference in the latest UniQ drivers to older generations without the ribs and waveguide.

Aesthetically there was no comparison. My wife put up with the R3s, but hated the 201/2s.

So I sold the 201/2s and kept the R3s until I bought my current speakers.

I'm not at all surprised the R3 are so high up on Amir's preference list.

I've also had a couple of sessions with the current Reference 1, albeit not at home.

It has the strengths of both and is the best standmount I've heard. I was very close to replacing my R3s with a used pair until I heard and saw my current Davone Solos.

So, for me, the current R series was slightly better than than the older Reference, but not the latest Reference.

Where I live used 201/2s are slightly more expensive than used R3s, and slightly cheaper than new ones. Reference 1s are more than double used.

The R3 or 201/2 make sense from a value proposition. But much as I loved the Reference 1, for the $6-7K they sell for used, let alone the $14K new, you can get a very good truly full range speaker. Even though I use subs for music, and don't listen all that loud, I like music with deep bass (organ, big classical, reggae, Max Richter & co) and the ease and sense of scale of something like a big Revel outweighs (literally) the technical excellence of something like a Ref 1.

I've also heard the bigger R series, but for some reason their bass extension doesn't seem to match the added drivers.

Sorry about the meander, but above the R3 diminishing value sets in very quickly.

 

[Great Egret]

Looking for new speakers to replace my R900 to match my new NAD M23. The R11 pair is now €3998 and the Ref 3 (2014) only €5950. What to choose? listening mostly to music like Max Richter, Johann Johannsson and Philip Glass.

If The Reference 3's are new, go with those. Better bassresponse and (if you find it important), the buildquality is on another level.

 

[NADKEF listener]

M13? Do you know something I don't? If that is a real product coming soon, that sounds like a solid plan. However, if you're just hoping NAD releases something like that, why not spring for the M33, and have a nice 1400 watt system?

The NAD dealer told me it should already have been launched. But many high-end hifi brands are delaying their product launches due to the disrupted supply chain. End of the year or beginning next year.

I like to keep the digital sound processing separate from the high power circuitry.

 

[NADKEF listener]

If The Reference 3's are new, go with those. Better bassresponse and (if you find it important), the buildquality is on another level.

I should have but suddenly it was €3289 vs €5950. But my decision will haunt me for a long time.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I should have but suddenly it was €3289 vs €5950. But my decision will haunt me for a long time.

lol
Just enjoy your speakers, the decision is already done, if you wanna something better maybe start saving for the currently refernce meta line lol

 

[JorisCeoen]

I’ve just found this thread, so I know it’s been a while since the last reply, but there’s a large audio store nearby where I live that hosts three completely acoustically treated rooms, with the largest one hosting the high-end speakers. They had the non-meta R11’s right next to the Reference 5’s.

I auditioned them a few months ago, side-by-side, and upon listening to them in a complete A/B test on the same Denon amplifier, it was almost laughable how little difference it made. It was so small, in fact, that my wife and I looked at each later a few times whenever he switched, simply shocked at how little difference there was sonically. There WAS a difference, however, but just so unimportant that I would barely be able to tell them apart. The biggest difference was the 4x more expensive price, which instantly made us decide to go for the R11’s without any doubt (the Reference finish was black-glossy with the dirt-ugly brass drivers… ugh).

The dealer himself admitted it was criminal how similar both were, and he was slightly concerned that KEF was undercutting their top speakers so many times since their release. It’s literally just a question of whether you can’t stand having Chinese-produced elements in the speakers or not.

Curious to test them sometime in the near-future to compare them against the meta versions instead. I expect almost no real difference, but I could be wrong.

 

[bo_knows]

I’ve just found this thread, so I know it’s been a while since the last reply, but there’s a large audio store nearby where I live that hosts three completely acoustically treated rooms, with the largest one hosting the high-end speakers. They had the non-meta R11’s right next to the Reference 5’s.

I auditioned them a few months ago, side-by-side, and upon listening to them in a complete A/B test on the same Denon amplifier, it was almost laughable how little difference it made. It was so small, in fact, that my wife and I looked at each later a few times whenever he switched, simply shocked at how little difference there was sonically. There WAS a difference, however, but just so unimportant that it simply made no difference. The biggest difference was the 4x more expensive price, which instantly made us decide to go for the R11’s without any doubt (the Reference finish was black-glossy with the dirt-ugly brass drivers… ugh).

The dealer himself admitted it was criminal how little difference there was, and he was slightly concerned that KEF was undercutting their top speakers so many times since their release. It’s literally just a question of whether you can’t stand having Chinese-produced elements in the speakers or not.

Curious to test them sometime in the near-future to compare them against the meta versions instead. I expect almost no real difference, but I could be wrong.

Cool, happy for you.