KEF LS60w - The Ugly Side of the Active Speaker Market

[JamesYeomans]

FYI the amp blew on one of my Genelec 8351Bs. The replacement of the amp board by HHB Source in the UK under the 5 year warranty was a pain free quick turnaround. All sorted in just over 2 weeks & no charge

Genelec - Source Distribution

We are the official support and service centre for Genelec in the UK. Looking for product manuals and information? For repairs or returns, choose a form below: Repairs Had the product more than 30 days? Returns Had it less than 30 days?

www.sourcedistribution.co.uk

[Edit: corrected from "HBB" to "HHB" and added URL]

 

[Ron Texas]

FYI the amp blew on one of my Genelec 8351Bs. The replacement of the amp board by HBB Source in the UK under the 5 year warranty was a pain free quick turnaround. All sorted in just over 2 weeks & no charge

I suspect service on is always going to be better with companies which heavily sell into the pro audio market. The KEF LS50W had a very high failure rate which makes me wary of the LS60W as well.

As for toddlers, the only solution is to not have anything around which may be damaged easily. That probably means the safest thing is wall mounted speakers which don't have any drivers within reach. There's no way to control what little kids do.

 

[Hear Here]

What make were the active speakers 40 years ago?

25 years ago, I was using ATC Active speakers. Although I didn't care for the sound, they performed flawlessly. Until relatively recently, active speakers were simply an active crossover feeding 3 amps each feeding a driver. Modern ones (D&D, Kii, some KEF, etc) include a DAC, DSP and sometimes a streamer, so are more complex, but their electronics should be more reliable as built by modern methods that are pretty much bullet-proof..

Since selling my ATCs, I've been using Avantgarde hybrid speakers where the bass is extracted electronically from the incoming signal and this is fed to a bespoke amp that powers the twin bass drivers, while the mid and top go directly to the drivers via minimum of passive XO. My most recent variant has their XD "room correction" software (built into the bass amps) that can be tailored to compensate for room anomalies. With all 3 of my AG speaker pairs, their performance has been flawless, apart from a slight "scratching" noise that had developed after 15 years or so in one speaker. A description of the noise to AG resulted in a very helpful and easy fix that involved the purchase of 2 small resistors (they sent photos showing exactly where they should be installed) and adjustment of internal trim pots. Great service from Avantgarde!

Incidentally, I never remove front panel covers from speakers. The sight of bare drivers isn't attractive, they offer a degree of protection, they keep dust from the cones and generally-speaking speakers are designed to sound their best with covers in place.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It doesn't. The result for the consumer is what changes. If my active speakers aren't working, then I need to procure a spare pair of actives to use whilst they're being repaired. That's not easy/cheap. If my passive speakers aren't working, at least the rest of my system is still 100% operational. I could conceivably buy a pair of 2nd hand speakers, use them whilst KEF/other company is taking 7 months to do repairs, and then sell them once my primary speakers are returned, and depending on the prices of the 2nd hand market, I may not lose anything. Alternatively, I could buy a cheap pair of passives that won't sound as good, but will still work just fine.

It is certainly possible to buy 2nd hand actives and sell those again, but the market for those is a lot smaller - it would be harder to do so. As for buying new - I'd be forced to buy the speaker and all its electronic components, which would cost more. In a passive system, I replace the one component that's damaged. In an active system you replace everything.

Possibly with all-in-one speakers. Ours are basically speakers with digital crossovers and built-in power amplifier, so the consumer still has a preamp and/or sources. If the delay was so long you had to purchase something else, it would be inconvenient in both cases.

 

[sigbergaudio]

i dont think that's recommended in the EU and other places with CE type certfication

customers taking apart 240v wall powered electronics???

It would be advisable to disconnect it from power first.

Replacing the drivers would be exactly the same operation as on a passive speaker.

If the amplifier needs to be replaced, we would send a completely new amplifier unit - so this is a very easy replacement. Disconnect a plug and plug it into the new amplifier. The old amplifier is not thrown away, but returned to us or Hypex to be repaired.

If the customer isn't comfortable doing this, that is also perfectly acceptable. Then one can return the speaker to us for repair, or have a local electronics shop do it for you (we will pay).

 

[mjgraves]

Agreed. Driver replacement is the same, whether the speaker is active or passive. Parts availability is the issue.

 

[GXAlan]

I don't see how delay on replacing drivers on a speaker has anything to do with the fact that they happen to be active.

We will happily replace (or send for you to replace) both drivers and amplifiers on our speakers and subs, so this does not have to be difficult on an active speaker.

To be fair, the OP said

“It is therefore imperative, that any company selling actives needs to have a robust aftermarket strategy, with quick repair times and an extensive global network of partners”

And it sounds like your company has quick repair times in place. The idea is that if you really enjoy music/movies on your setup, downtime is not much fun and with active speakers, if one thing goes down, the whole system is offline unless you keep a second pair of speakers on standby.

 

[mjgraves]

To be fair, the OP said

“It is therefore imperative, that any company selling actives needs to have a robust aftermarket strategy, with quick repair times and an extensive global network of partners”

And it sounds like your company has quick repair times in place. The idea is that if you really enjoy music/movies on your setup, downtime is not much fun and with active speakers, if one thing goes down, the whole system is offline unless you keep a second pair of speakers on standby.

A large company might do all their own repairs in-house. This might be preferrable to relying upon third parties.

What do people think about advance replacements? In the case of things like the JBL 708P, I'd be happy with an exchange for a refurbished unit, as long as the warranty held.

 

[Hear Here]

To be fair, the OP said

“It is therefore imperative, that any company selling actives needs to have a robust aftermarket strategy, with quick repair times and an extensive global network of partners”

And it sounds like your company has quick repair times in place. The idea is that if you really enjoy music/movies on your setup, downtime is not much fun and with active speakers, if one thing goes down, the whole system is offline unless you keep a second pair of speakers on standby.

It strikes me that the local agent is far more to blame for the delay than KEF themselves. However I agree that KEF may have suggested a second-rate agent, although it is quite likely that the agent has never before had to deal with such a failure in a normally very reliable KEF product. They seem not to be geared up for a "Category T" situation!

 

[Ktacos]

If your passives or actives die, the result and solution is the same, you have no speakers so you have to buy some.

If I were KEF I'd just send out a new speaker after so much time had passed, but it's not my company.

I'm not judging here, kids are kids, but putting an LS60 in a room where a toddler can get to it, that might have been a not so good idea. I gave a friend a pair of speakers and said don't put them out here, your little guy will immediately destroy the cones and domes. He didn't listen and within 10 minutes they were ruined and needed replaced. I built them for him and they were good speakers so it really bugged me when that happened, although part of me thinks it's funny how they don't really see value in stuff I obsess over, gives some perspective. But also you little shit you wrecked my speakers.

 

[Esprit]

I decided to post this here as a cautionary tale to anyone considering going down the Active Speaker route

The problem is KEF (at least in your case) not the active diffuser that needs repairing.
Adam Audio replaced a pair of monitors for me at his own expense via plane flight (Germany-France-Italy) and did it in real time and I believe it is the same for any other "professional" brand.

 

[terryforsythe]

Bottom line: don't buy actives unless you KNOW the company selling them has their aftermarket sorted out. KEF isn't ready yet - hopefully this is something they are working on. At the very least, have some sort of insurance program. Fancy speakers cost as much as a car does, and at least you get a replacement car to drive whilst yours is in the shop. If we're going to be asked to wait for months for basic repairs, at the very least we need something similar.

Another solution, for those that don't mind a little bit of DIY, is to remove the crossovers from passive speakers, and setup the active crossovers and amplification externally.

There are some fairly good, yet inexpensive, amplifiers that have come onto the market in recent years. Combine two or three of those with a Raspberry Pi, CamillaDSP and a multi-channel DAC (4, 6 or 8 channels depending on your setup), or a miniDSP product if you prefer an all-in-one solution, and you can have an all active system that performs extremely well and that is fairly reasonably priced.

 

[sergeauckland]

What make were the active speakers 40 years ago?

My first ones were Meridian M2, in about 1985. There were others even earlier, going back to the 1970s.

S.

 

[kemmler3D]

@Danaxus thanks for the info, it's slightly alarming to hear this as a fellow LS60 owner. What color are yours, hopefully not blue?

On my end, I've had to contact KEF twice because I got a deal on a dealer floor model, and they turned out to be missing the feet and the remote.

In both cases KEF was responsive and sent out the parts quickly without charging me money, just asked me to verify the S/N on the back of the speaker.

So my take-away here is that KEF doesn't have enough spare parts and is probably cannibalizing them from other returns (scary) but I still think their customer service is pretty good, at least on the front-end.

As for toddler-proofing, (once we have one around) my plan is to 3D print some grilles and wall anchors for them. That will compromise the look and the sound a little, but not as much as being pushed over or poked in.

 

[Danaxus]

It strikes me that the local agent is far more to blame for the delay than KEF themselves. However I agree that KEF may have suggested a second-rate agent, although it is quite likely that the agent has never before had to deal with such a failure in a normally very reliable KEF product. They seem not to be geared up for a "Category T" situation!

Unfortunately, it was KEF themselves. I was in direct contact with them, and the delays regarding shipping parts to the reseller, as well as the poor packaging of the parts that caused them to be damaged (twice), during shipping - was all KEF.

thanks for the info, it's slightly alarming to hear this as a fellow LS60 owner. What color are yours, hopefully not blue?

On my end, I've had to contact KEF twice because I got a deal on a dealer floor model, and they turned out to be missing the feet and the remote.

In both cases KEF was responsive and sent out the parts quickly without charging me money, just asked me to verify the S/N on the back of the speaker.

So my take-away here is that KEF doesn't have enough spare parts and is probably cannibalizing them from other returns (scary) but I still think their customer service is pretty good, at least on the front-end.

As for toddler-proofing, (once we have one around) my plan is to 3D print some grilles and wall anchors for them. That will compromise the look and the sound a little, but not as much as being pushed over or poked in.

KEF's customer service is top-notch! I spoke to a KEF agent called Ayden - guy was ace! Quick replies, went out of his way to sort things out - really proactive. It's the rest of the chain that was an issue. Regarding the toddler, as someone with some painful experience, might I recommend a piranha-moat and spike traps around your speakers instead? Perhaps a few toddler heads mounted on spears surrounding them too, so the little one knows you mean business. Let me tell you - Indiana Jones is nothing compared to a determined toddler!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Regarding the toddler, as someone with some painful experience, might I recommend a piranha-moat and spike traps around your speakers instead? Perhaps a few toddler heads mounted on spears surrounding them too, so the little one knows you mean business. Let me tell you - Indiana Jones is nothing compared to a determined toddler!

I know.
1. When we had our first toddler, she actually crawled into one of my Altec A7s!
2. When we had our first grandkid, she rode her tricycle into one of my Apogee Duettas.
It's only now that all are grown to adulthood (and great-grandkids are not yet imminent) that I could safely have the KEFs.

 

[kelesh]

i dont think that's recommended in the EU and other places with CE type certfication

customers taking apart 240v wall powered electronics???

How is that different from customers taking apart, replacing or rewiring a 240v wall outlet itself, or any other electrical device? Is this illegal in the EU now?

 

[jhaider]

Passive speakers also have woofers.
Keep toddlers away from expensive speakers would appear to be the lesson.
Keith

Let’s be real. They’re asking for these kinds of issues due to the piss poor design choice of naked and especially fragile drivers. The issue isn’t active/passive it’s terrible industrial design.

 

[sigbergaudio]

How is that different from customers taking apart, replacing or rewiring a 240v wall outlet itself, or any other electrical device? Is this illegal in the EU now?

Yes.

 

[kelesh]

Let’s be real. They’re asking for these kinds of issues due to the piss poor design choice of naked and especially fragile drivers. The issue isn’t active/passive it’s terrible industrial design.

There are many fragile items in the audio equipment chain. You can't bulletproof everything and some things just don't mix well. A toddler and a turntable, for example.