KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[Darvis]

Im listening with my HD800S

You're evaluating your HD800s then, not whatever you're listening with them.

 

[harkpabst]

Having done the design work on this, putting it in everything as it's refreshed is a no-brainer.

Yes, didn't want to put too much emphasis on this but making the actual thing should be dead cheap.

Although I was interested to see that the LS60 version is just a scaled down version, with exactly the same pattern as far as I can see. Not too much new work involved there.

So that in turn means its handling a higher set of frequencies - it starts at 840Hz rather than 620Hz.

My brain can't tell if it's exactly the same pattern. And don't forget the obvious: With a smaller diameter disc the length and/or number of the channels has to be slightly reduced. At least if you stick with a two layer disc. I could imagine that said acoustical impedance matching from the dome through the duct to the MAT disc prevents a third layer.

Not a big deal anyway. Since the tweeter kicks in later than in the bigger Meta Uni-Q drivers there'll be little output below 840 Hz, so the entire concept scales well.

 

[Daka]

You're evaluating your HD800s then, not whatever you're listening with them.

Yes you can’t say how it exactly will sound based on YouTube. You can get a gist of a soundstage it creates though.

 

[Marc v E]

To me it's rather interesting to see the ls60 create such a buzz while they cost 6000,-. I wonder how many are truely prepared to pay that for stereo speakers. (Genuinely curious) I was under the impression almost everybody goes for surround sound these days with a few exceptions. I can't see how the ls60 would fit a surround sound setup.

 

[KMO]

To me it's rather interesting to see the ls60 create such a buzz while they cost 6000,-. I wonder how many are truely prepared to pay that for stereo speakers. (Genuinely curious) I was under the impression almost everybody goes for surround sound these days with a few exceptions. I can't see how the ls60 would fit a surround sound setup.

Dunno - a lot of people here seem to be 2-channel holdouts. But also not many seem to be looking for stuff around the 6000 price, either. It's a lot.

It's no tougher to integrate these into a multichannel system than any other speaker - just use the auxiliary analogue input from the receiver's pre-outs - but then all the smart stuff becomes pointless.

Except for the fact that, as someone else pointed out, if you're inclined to switch between 2-channel and multichannel operation, then you can have these run standalone for 2-channel, using all the onboard streaming bits, and treat the aux input as a sort of AVR passthrough.

 

[BoredErica]

To me it's rather interesting to see the ls60 create such a buzz while they cost 6000,-. I wonder how many are truely prepared to pay that for stereo speakers. (Genuinely curious) I was under the impression almost everybody goes for surround sound these days with a few exceptions. I can't see how the ls60 would fit a surround sound setup.

Personally, I'm not in stage of my life where I feel comfortable spending $6k on speakers. Audio is by far not my #1 hobby, and I'd rather save that money for earlier retirement. Maybe in a decade. And even if I was willing to spend so much, surround sound viability depends on my ability to make it look nice in my room. If I feel surround sound looks too ugly, I probably won't ever get around to setting a system up.

 

[Mnyb]

I nowadays have a separate HT setup which is much more modest than my previus HT and combined hifi (denon reciever and small canton speakers + sub ) . This resides in our small media room and works fine for movies and is good enough to get me engaged in the movie.

I have my previous system for music only in the living room and a 5.1 Meridian system is basically dominating the space , so I'm thinking of a 2.1 setup instead . Maybe a mini dsp will a part of it .

So the ls60 + mini dsp +my raspi streamer and my current rhytmic sub might be a good 2.1 that would work nicely with music ?

 

[sifi36]

I nowadays have a separate HT setup which is much more modest than my previus HT and combined hifi (denon reciever and small canton speakers + sub ) . This resides in our small media room and works fine for movies and is good enough to get me engaged in the movie.

I have my previous system for music only in the living room and a 5.1 Meridian system is basically dominating the space , so I'm thinking of a 2.1 setup instead . Maybe a mini dsp will a part of it .

So the ls60 + mini dsp +my raspi streamer and my current rhytmic sub might be a good 2.1 that would work nicely with music ?

Whilst the specs of the LS60 are appealing, if you’re not using the in-built streamer, perhaps the Buchardt A700 or one of the Dyanudio floorstanders might be a better option. Unless of course the small footprint is part of the appeal.

 

[raest]

i wonder if KEF would consider releasing an "LS60 Simple" active speaker with "just" the amps and dsp, so no streaming and no wireless and other "smart" stuff that may or may not become obsolete or outdated in X years... which would also decrease complexity and possibly increase reliability (and easier servicing?)... and i wonder how much cheaper they'd be

i think even at 500€ less per pair i'd rather get the "simple" version just for the potential increase in longevity

but i think the chances of that are very, very close to zero

 

[Vacceo]

i wonder if KEF would consider releasing an "LS60 Simple" active speaker with "just" the amps and dsp, so no streaming and no wireless and other "smart" stuff that may or may not become obsolete or outdated in X years... which would also decrease complexity and possibly increase reliability (and easier servicing?)... and i wonder how much cheaper they'd be

i think even at 500€ less per pair i'd rather get the "simple" version just for the potential increase in longevity

but i think the chances of that are very, very close to zero

That'd be amazing. Complete it with center and elevation speakers matching them and we have a winning ht.

 

[Marc v E]

i wonder if KEF would consider releasing an "LS60 Simple" active speaker with "just" the amps and dsp, so no streaming and no wireless and other "smart" stuff that may or may not become obsolete or outdated in X years... which would also decrease complexity and possibly increase reliability (and easier servicing?)... and i wonder how much cheaper they'd be

i think even at 500€ less per pair i'd rather get the "simple" version just for the potential increase in longevity

but i think the chances of that are very, very close to zero

From what I know of products their pricing is seldomly based on the price of components. You're basically paying to keep the company afloat and shareholders/owners happy.

One other thing to consider is: I wouldn't be surprised if splitting the ls60 line in two, where 1 is installing with streamer and smart bits, while the other produces just the active version, would make the average production price of the ls60 more expensive than by just keeping it simple. Same for 1 production line with different orders, where 1 man either makes a speaker smart or not.

BTW: if you want them considerably cheaper and practically new, I would recommend to buy a demo pair from a retailer.

 

[TSB]

From what I know of products their pricing is seldomly based on the price of components. You're basically paying to keep the company afloat and shareholders/owners happy.

One other thing to consider is: I wouldn't be surprised if splitting the ls60 line in two, where 1 is installing with streamer and smart bits, while the other produces just the active version, would make the average production price of the ls60 more expensive than by just keeping it simple. Same for 1 production line with different orders, where 1 man either makes a speaker smart or not.

This would require developing & maintaining two different electronic designs and software stacks, and both will end up being significantly more expensive.

 

[TSB]

From what I know of products their pricing is seldomly based on the price of components. You're basically paying to keep the company afloat and shareholders/owners happy.

One other thing to consider is: I wouldn't be surprised if splitting the ls60 line in two, where 1 is installing with streamer and smart bits, while the other produces just the active version, would make the average production price of the ls60 more expensive than by just keeping it simple. Same for 1 production line with different orders, where 1 man either makes a speaker smart or not.

BTW: if you want them considerably cheaper and practically new, I would recommend to buy a demo pair from a retailer.

Correct, you're paying mostly for the development, i.e. cost of designing hardware and software. The cost of getting 10 chips working together is a lot higher than buying 10 chips, especially for low volume stuff like high-end smart speakers.

 

[Daka]

Dunno - a lot of people here seem to be 2-channel holdouts. But also not many seem to be looking for stuff around the 6000 price, either. It's a lot.

It is a lot but could be much better value than reference speakers - quite few people bought these. Also the hype is around how they are basically mini blades, new design standalone speaker, better for minimalists.

It's no tougher to integrate these into a multichannel system than any other speaker - just use the auxiliary analogue input from the receiver's pre-outs - but then all the smart stuff becomes pointless.

Smart features as in streaming yes. But let’s not forget active speaker is active dsp it will perform better at lower volumes than passive. Plus it’s “smarts” allow it to go really low. All that won’t be lost when feeding sound via RCA.

Except for the fact that, as someone else pointed out, if you're inclined to switch between 2-channel and multichannel operation, then you can have these run standalone for 2-channel, using all the onboard streaming bits, and treat the aux input as a sort of AVR passthrough.

They are versatile on purpose. This is direction KEF wants go and this will be their unique selling point as well. This can be big for them.
From personal perspective - buying reference line speaker is not an option not only from cost perspective but what extra they bring for that price compared to R line - not worth that full price tag.
LS60 on the other hand is interesting, it brings a lot of changes and improvements for less. If I wanted separate 2 channel setup this would be on my shortlist. If I wanted to replace my fronts with them is bit tougher as I have very good amps, I have great sounding AVR, I have great sub - so the only thing they would bring is ability to play without rest of the hardware turned on, including sub but most importantly wider soundstage. Would that be enough to spend 6k? Don’t know yet. Would need to listen to them.

 

[Mnyb]

Whilst the specs of the LS60 are appealing, if you’re not using the in-built streamer, perhaps the Buchardt A700 or one of the Dyanudio floorstanders might be a better option. Unless of course the small footprint is part of the appeal.

The built in streamer would probably not do much on price rather the opposite ? the product is more versatile than i need , but the audience for it is much wider so hence it will be cheaper than a more specialized version .

The A700 is on the table or a passive solution .

The real appeal to me is kef's acoustical engineering with the Uni-q and the blade like arrangement of the other drivers etc . Combined with an active solution with all the advantages active digital filters give you ,that's also not to small (ls50) .

 

[pablolie]

To me it's rather interesting to see the ls60 create such a buzz while they cost 6000,-. I wonder how many are truely prepared to pay that for stereo speakers. (Genuinely curious) I was under the impression almost everybody goes for surround sound these days with a few exceptions. I can't see how the ls60 would fit a surround sound setup.

They are not only speakers - they are a complete system. With that in mind, $7k is not *that* much for what could be regarded as true reference level sound. You're saving yourself the $ for DAC and amplification (and cabling if you're into that).

 

[Mnyb]

They not only speakers - they are a complete system. With that in mind, $7k is not *that* much for what could be regarded true reference level sound. You're saving yourself the $ for DAC and amplification (and cabling if you're into that).

Yes some people will just need their phone and they are good to go with a complete system.

 

[raest]

This would require developing & maintaining two different electronic designs and software stacks, and both will end up being significantly more expensive.

if they're sufficiently modular, it's not two different electronic designs. one is "just" the same as the other, with the added "smart" functions. and no other software stack. the "simple" version is dumb, no software there (other than the dsp)

BTW: if you want them considerably cheaper and practically new, I would recommend to buy a demo pair from a retailer.

i don't want them considerably cheaper (well, i'd definitely like more money in my pocket, but the economical part wasn't the main point of my post ). i want them simpler and more reliable and without features better served by a dedicated external device that makes it significantly easier to maintain and upgrade long term. if that makes them cheaper, fine. if not, fine as well

 

[harkpabst]

It's no tougher to integrate these into a multichannel system than any other speaker - just use the auxiliary analogue input from the receiver's pre-outs - but then all the smart stuff becomes pointless.

Except for the fact that, as someone else pointed out, if you're inclined to switch between 2-channel and multichannel operation, then you can have these run standalone for 2-channel, using all the onboard streaming bits, and treat the aux input as a sort of AVR passthrough.

I see only one potential problem here. KEF does not (so far) provide a "home theater bypass" setting per input. The manual explains how a volume setting of 71 results in unity gain. But If you want to switch between 2-channel audio (using the inbuilt streamer or DAC) and HT usage (where level matching is mandatory) this would end up in a rather tedious procedure of adjusting the volume back and forth.

If they would allow to bypass the volume setting for one chosen input (possibly the analoge RCA input for AV integration) this problem would be fixed. Should be doable purely by software. That's how e.g. Lyngdorf does it.

 

[KMO]

The manual explains how a volume setting of 71 results in unity gain. But If you want to switch between 2-channel audio (using the inbuilt streamer or DAC) and HT usage (where level matching is mandatory) this would end up in a rather tedious procedure of adjusting the volume back and forth.

Yeah, I noticed that. The fact that they call it out in the manual shows that they're aware of the issue enough to document something, but they haven't quite managed to pull their finger out and add "volume defeat per source" as a proper feature. Would be a very nice touch to add in a firmware+app update.

I did have to wonder whether "unity gain" is really meaningful here. What exactly do they mean by that? Amplifier clips at the same point as the ADCs? Speaker max SPL reached at some nominal line level? Specifying a power-amp style "input sensitivity" for that setting might be helpful.

Looking at the manual again, to check that, I noticed a contradiction - manual says the subwoofer output is mono. Other blurb I've seen says it can do stereo subwoofers. Do I recall this was added in a LS50 Wireless II patch? Maybe manual is out-of-date.