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KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

maverickronin

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I used to do marketing for an audio manufacturer (with some overlap on support) and frankly, if my users expected hi-fi sound and someone suggested building in a PEQ, I'd at least make them promise to bury it in a developer-mode menu somewhere.

EQ is fine when people don't have specific expectations for sound. The typical audiophile doesn't really know how to use a PEQ and there are JUST enough of them that will 1) make things worse and then 2) return the speakers or burden support staff with their user error that it's not worth it.

People who know what they're doing (us) also know enough to set up PEQ some other way. We're going to buy the speaker anyway... and so our convenience doesn't outweigh KEF's inconvenience here, unfortunately.

T7JCTJi.jpg
 

Kervel

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I used to do marketing for an audio manufacturer (with some overlap on support) and frankly, if my users expected hi-fi sound and someone suggested building in a PEQ, I'd at least make them promise to bury it in a developer-mode menu somewhere.

EQ is fine when people don't have specific expectations for sound. The typical audiophile doesn't really know how to use a PEQ and there are JUST enough of them that will 1) make things worse and then 2) return the speakers or burden support staff with their user error that it's not worth it.

People who know what they're doing (us) also know enough to set up PEQ some other way. We're going to buy the speaker anyway... and so our convenience doesn't outweigh KEF's inconvenience here, unfortunately.
This is a thoughtful point. One hopes that competition between manufacturers would push them into adding PEQ. I, for one, bought several minidsp products (and non-KEF speakers); but would have gone for KEF had they included PEQ
 

Soniclife

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someone suggested building in a PEQ, I'd at least make them promise to bury it in a developer-mode menu somewhere.
I'd have no problem with it being hidden, unless you knew where to look, there are settings on my phone that can only be accessed using search, so you need to know what they are to change them.
 

Purité Audio

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I am sure I have mentioned before how the U.K. Kii distributor doesn’t mention to his dealers that they even have PEQ, and how I once received a returned set of Kii/BXTs where effectively the bass had been turned ‘off’.
Keith
 

kemmler3D

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This is a thoughtful point. One hopes that competition between manufacturers would push them into adding PEQ. I, for one, bought several minidsp products (and non-KEF speakers); but would have gone for KEF had they included PEQ
I'd have no problem with it being hidden, unless you knew where to look, there are settings on my phone that can only be accessed using search, so you need to know what they are to change them.
If you want PEQ built into actives or streamers, keep saying it loudly and frequently, anywhere you think product managers or marketers might see. Customer research is not necessarily always super-scientific or robust, so if the people in charge of these things start to get the feeling PEQ is going to increase sales, they'll throw it in. After all, as we well know, there's plenty of DSP under the hood to handle it. Even the $50 bluetooth speaker you get at Walmart probably has at least 7 bands on the module.

There is possibly the "don't put ketchup on my beautiful steak" phenomenon going on at the manufacturers as well. The LS60 probably has 100s of hours of DSP tuning in it. Those people don't necessarily want some joker undoing all their hard work, and showing off their terribly "dialed in" speakers to friends.

But, to any product folks reading this thread - we really only want it for room correction! We don't want to put ketchup on the steak! Don't let MiniDSP keep eating your lunches! +$400 for an outboard DSP module is too much! Please and thank you!

I am sure I have mentioned before how the U.K. Kii distributor doesn’t mention to his dealers that they even have PEQ, and how I once received a returned set of Kii/BXTs where effectively the bass had been turned ‘off’.
Keith
Thanks for the anecdote, this is exactly why you don't have PEQ exposed to users most of the time. One return like this can wipe out 3 or more sales' worth of profit. So you have to believe that adding PEQ is going to get you enough extra sales to more than outweigh the returns due to user error. I think it's clear that the KEFs of the world do not think the numbers wash on that.

They're aware that anyone savvy enough to ask for PEQ probably also knows they can add it elsewhere, unfortunately. Anyone not savvy enough to ask for PEQ is going to make a hash of it, if they include it...

The way to change that equation is to loudly proclaim "I bought this because it has PEQ, and didn't buy the other one, because it doesn't!" Leave these reviews anywhere you truthfully can, whether or not you bought it there.
 

Purité Audio

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Dutch&Dutch already offer a remote set-up, team viewer, all the customer has to do is place the microphone, REW sends the filters directly to each speaker result painless peq and a really well dialled in sound.
Keith
 

samysound

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Dutch&Dutch already offer a remote set-up, team viewer, all the customer has to do is place the microphone, REW sends the filters directly to each speaker result painless peq and a really well dialled in sound.
Keith
One work around is to offer an automated room correction option like Dirac. not as easy to fiddle with and mess up as direct PEQ input. This seems to be becoming more common place in TVs and sound bars now (e.g., sonos uses your cell phone mic, some TVs have a mic build into the remote or use cell phone mics)
 

Kervel

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Customers making PEQ mistakes is just poor user interface. At least add a big green button 'Factory Default Settings'. Of course, automated room correction is even less error prone.
 

tmtomh

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Customers making PEQ mistakes is just poor user interface. At least add a big green button 'Factory Default Settings'. Of course, automated room correction is even less error prone.

Agree 100% about a big Reset to Defaults button, and about how automated correction is much less error-prone.

I do, however, think that PEQ mistakes can be pretty easy for new users to make no matter how good the interface is. The reason I say this is that new users don't always understand how wide vs narrow Q can impact things; and they don't always understand when to use a peak/dip filter vs a high or low shelf. I'm not sure how a good user interface could prevent that.
 

Kervel

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Agree 100% about a big Reset to Defaults button, and about how automated correction is much less error-prone.

I do, however, think that PEQ mistakes can be pretty easy for new users to make no matter how good the interface is. The reason I say this is that new users don't always understand how wide vs narrow Q can impact things; and they don't always understand when to use a peak/dip filter vs a high or low shelf. I'm not sure how a good user interface could prevent that.
Of course you dont want users to fill in individual coefficients. Ample solutions. GLM offers a figure of the response postEQ for visual inspection. MutliSubOptimizer and MiniDSP ask users to export REW coefficient into a .txt file, to import that file in their software. The latter two are reasonable, but still significantly error prone as REW has a serious learning curve with sooo many options. MiniDSP step by step manuals are good; but are not updated everytime REW updates so there is a mismatch there.
 

tmtomh

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Of course you dont want users to fill in individual coefficients. Ample solutions. GLM offers a figure of the response postEQ for visual inspection. MutliSubOptimizer and MiniDSP ask users to export REW coefficient into a .txt file, to import that file in their software. The latter two are reasonable, but still significantly error prone as REW has a serious learning curve with sooo many options. MiniDSP step by step manuals are good; but are not updated everytime REW updates so there is a mismatch there.

Thanks for the explanation. Good points and agree.
 

kemmler3D

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Customers making PEQ mistakes is just poor user interface.
Consider that many people don't know how to read a frequency response graph - at all. Further consider that people who do, may not be able to correlate what they hear, and what's on the graph very well.

Beyond that, the numbers of frequency, dB, and Q in particular are foreign to most music listeners. If someone equalizing their speakers for the first time, using PEQ, DIDN'T make a mistake, it would be pretty amazing, honestly.

ASR users, who read FR graphs and filter coefficients as a second language, are rare. That probably describes 1% of a given speaker's market on a good day. You may want to design for the top 1% of your users, but business sense sadly dictates otherwise.

At least add a big green button 'Factory Default Settings'.
This, I agree with.

Of course, automated room correction is even less error prone.
You know what they say about idiot-proof designs... they just keep making better idiots.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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Hopefully KEF launched the ls60 gloosy shiny good looking finish + 5 years warranty on electronics !
This ls60 is amazing, but 2 yo is too low, also mate looks kind of bad to me
 

kemmler3D

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Just pulled the trigger on some blue LS60s and a pair of KC62s. Got a pretty smokin' deal on US Audio Mart. A big step up in budget for me, but I think these will be as close to endgame as I get in the next 10 years. Very excited about the upgrade. Still planning on running EQAPO with these for room correction, but I'm open to suggestions on simpler approaches. An RPi with optical in/out?

Current main system is B&W DM2000s from the 80s and a single Sunfire sealed sub, which are not garbage by any means, but it's still a considerable upgrade. Perhaps just as importantly, they have the highest WAF I could hope for until they invent cloaking devices. The blue will match the "media wall" where the TV and related componentry will go.

Actives may have a reliability penalty, but they have a big bonus for those with limited space to hide boxes and limited partner patience for wires. :) The new "media cabinet" is only 7" deep. Amps and DACs are increasingly hard to house. A Roku and a DSP rig is about as good as I can do in there without resorting to goofy vertical orientations and 3D-printed stands and stuff.

Will post impressions in a couple weeks once I've got them set up.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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Just pulled the trigger on some blue LS60s and a pair of KC62s. Got a pretty smokin' deal on US Audio Mart. A big step up in budget for me, but I think these will be as close to endgame as I get in the next 10 years. Very excited about the upgrade. Still planning on running EQAPO with these for room correction, but I'm open to suggestions on simpler approaches. An RPi with optical in/out?

Current main system is B&W DM2000s from the 80s and a single Sunfire sealed sub, which are not garbage by any means, but it's still a considerable upgrade. Perhaps just as importantly, they have the highest WAF I could hope for until they invent cloaking devices. The blue will match the "media wall" where the TV and related componentry will go.

Actives may have a reliability penalty, but they have a big bonus for those with limited space to hide boxes and limited partner patience for wires. :) The new "media cabinet" is only 7" deep. Amps and DACs are increasingly hard to house. A Roku and a DSP rig is about as good as I can do in there.

Will post impressions in a couple weeks once I've got them set up.
Just a question, is kind of weird to me the ls60+kc62 combo
Why?
Because the ls60 has the same ''woofer area '' 4x5.25=>dual 6.5''

Why not the KF92 or others subs?
Thanks

It is possible to do dual kc62 per side with the ls60? nike a stack of kc62 x2+x2?
Like this but with these smallish kc62
Carbon_Special_Stack_b-silo-edited-1-690x900.png
 

kemmler3D

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Just a question, is kind of weird to me the ls60+kc62 combo
Why?
Because the ls60 has the same ''woofer area '' 4x5.25=>dual 6.5''

Why not the KF92 or others subs?
Thanks

It is possible to do dual kc62 per side with the ls60? nike a stack of kc62 x2+x2?
Like this but with these smallish kc62
Carbon_Special_Stack_b-silo-edited-1-690x900.png
Main reason: 2x KC62s were included in the listing for a very good deal. :)

However, for me this setup makes sense and works nicely. Small and wireless are very good things for my space, otherwise WAF reaches dangerously low levels. The KC62 looks nice and has pretty good output for such a tiny box.

Also, the space is not ideal, so flexible placement matters. It's an "open concept" medium-sized room, where living room, kitchen, "dining room" are all open to a stairwell and hallway, but listening area is along one wall, not the center. So flexibility in placing subs is important to make up for flaws in mandatory placement of mains.

The room is not HUGE, and I don't like to listen very loud, so maximum output is not as important as flexible placement. I am mostly hoping for advantages in fixing room modes in the 20-150hz range with the subs, rather than getting maximum SPL.

The room is also really well set up for flexible sub placement with minimal cord length. The place was recently renovated and there are 16 (!) power outlets in one room. Placement should be pretty easy.

It should also be easy to integrate the wireless connection with the subs... something nice about doing all one brand there. But if they weren't included in the listing I would possibly go another route, maybe even low-profile 18" OB subs or something weird like that. It just happened that this was all convenient in a single order for me.

I expect that I will be pretty happy with the SPL across the board, but if not, I will have to work WAF miracles to do anything different. ;)
 
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nothingman

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Makes sense. More than adding total surface area and amplification to the system, which isn’t nothing, the flexibility of having two KC62s to address uneven bass in such a room will be a huge value. Even if the subs are a little mismatched (or at least a wash) in terms of total output, two KC62s in ideal locations will wipe the floor with the 4 x 5.25 woofers in the LS60 if the latter are getting nulled at the listening position.

Plus, nothing says the LS60s have to be put on a HPF. With the bass output capabilities across the mains and subs basically being on par, then the KC62s could be used to just to plug holes in the frequency response and add to the overall bass output, not replace it entirely.
 

kemmler3D

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Makes sense. More than adding total surface area and amplification to the system, which isn’t nothing, the flexibility of having two KC62s to address uneven bass in such a room will be a huge value. Even if the subs are a little mismatched (or at least a wash) in terms of total output, two KC62s in ideal locations will wipe the floor with the 4 x 5.25 woofers in the LS60 if the latter are getting nulled at the listening position.

Plus, nothing says the LS60s have to be put on a HPF. With the bass output capabilities across the mains and subs basically being on par, then the KC62s could be used to just to plug holes in the frequency response and add to the overall bass output, not replace it entirely.
Yep exactly. No matter how much output you have with a stereo pair, you're going to get nulls and you're going to want (in theory) a sub or three to fill them.

Since the LS60 mids are crossed reasonably (340 hz) you can use the subs to attack nulls all over the place and just let the mains run full range also, you're not giving up much/anything in terms of midrange clarity even if you forgo the high pass. If you do room correction you don't need to worry about LP or HP - just placement.

In general I think you should run actives with maximal HP / LP if you're doing room correction - as long as you're not getting wacky distortion, the more coverage you can get, the better.

Supposedly the KC62s go down to 11hz... okay, sure. But I think with the LS60s and 2x KC62s you can at least hope to have something going on full range in a good patch around the MLP. It's mostly about smoothing the response, if I wanted truly massive SPL I'd look into some 15"s. ;)
 
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Vacceo

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Yep exactly. No matter how much output you have with a stereo pair, you're going to get nulls and you're going to want (in theory) a sub or three to fill them.

Since the LS60 mids are crossed reasonably (340 hz) you can use the subs to attack nulls all over the place and just let the mains run full range also, you're not giving up much/anything in terms of midrange clarity even if you forgo the high pass. If you do room correction you don't need to worry about LP or HP - just placement.

In general I think you should run actives with maximal HP / LP if you're doing room correction - as long as you're not getting wacky distortion, the more coverage you can get, the better.

Supposedly the KC62s go down to 11hz... okay, sure. But I think with the LS60s and 2x KC62s you can at least hope to have something going on full range in a good patch around the MLP. It's mostly about smoothing the response, if I wanted truly massive SPL I'd look into some 15"s. ;)
The KC62 does indeed reach 11 Hz and I could confirm it with a microphone and the "infamous" Edge of Tomorrow start scene.

The trick is how low the spl is at those frequencies. ;)
 

kemmler3D

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Of course you dont want users to fill in individual coefficients. Ample solutions. GLM offers a figure of the response postEQ for visual inspection. MutliSubOptimizer and MiniDSP ask users to export REW coefficient into a .txt file, to import that file in their software. The latter two are reasonable, but still significantly error prone as REW has a serious learning curve with sooo many options. MiniDSP step by step manuals are good; but are not updated everytime REW updates so there is a mismatch there.
I think a guided automated process is more foolproof, but there's still plenty of room for mistakes that aren't easily avoided by providing manuals or in-app guidance.

Where room EQ works for the average user - SONOS has done it well, but it's 100% automated. Even 90% automated leaves a gap that customer service will be left to fill in many cases. Or worse, the process "succeeds" but actually fails and makes the sound worse and causes a return.
 
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