KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[Trouble Maker]

To sustain 700w over let’s say 5h you would need another 2 towers made of batteries, weighing 60kg and costing another 6k.

None of those numbers are rooted in fact.

And for the record I think building a battery into these is pointless, actually a waste (unnecessary cost) for most that wouldn't use it anyway. There are better products with better form factors if the goal is portable music. If one really needed these to be portable there are plenty of portable battery solutions.

 

[KMO]

Correct me if I'm wrong but to the best of my knowledge any proper stereo downmix should by all means include the LFE. There is no reason not to, except sloppy programming.

Dolby standards say to exclude it and all normal consumer kit will do so. It's supposed to be "extra" bass for those with the most-capable systems, so anything in there should be present at lower level in the main channels, and hence still be audible in a downmix that uses only the main channels.

To include the LFE in the downmix would mean drastically lowering the level of the normal content - there's no headroom to add all that extra bass in the normal tracks (which is why it was separated off in the first place!)

On top of that, there's a historical assumption that anyone using a 2.0 downmix does not have a fully-capable AV system, and does not have a subwoofer. The 2.0 is the "backwards-compatibility" output. It also is usually more level-compressed (lower dynamic range) too, by default, for the same reason.

Devices like this somewhat break that assumption, and there's possibly an increasing small number of devices that are capable of doing LFE-including downmixes, but most won't by default - largely because of the level issue. People are going to be put off by that source being 15dB quieter than their 2.0 channel content. (And with 15dB worse SNR as a result).

 

[Pearljam5000]

@13cm wide, it's even slimmer than some soundbars
Hard to swallow when you think about big speakers like ATC SCM50

 

[Tangband]

@13cm wide, it's even slimmer than some soundbars
Hard to swallow when you think about big speakers like ATC SCM50

Aha- some speculation then :
The need for baffle step correction should then be from about 890 Hz and downward to the crossover point at 390 Hz.

So Kef has probably done some eq shelving boosting for the Uni -q driver from 890 Hz down to the crossover point at 390 Hz .

The boosting thats needed for this without roomgain, below the baffle step area is +6 dB . The driver must then move more in this area. In reality , I would guess they have used maybe + 4 because of room-gain in a normal room. So maybe not a big issue.

There are no technical advantage with a very slim baffle, theres gonna be some penalty with the needed boost, but it makes the speaker look beautiful.

If Kef would have used a 30 cm wide baffle, they wouldnt have needed any dsp boost at all. That also would have ment ( maybe ) +4 dB higher spl in this frequency area. This speaker would have looked bold and ugly.

There is no change of the physical laws.

 

[harkpabst]

It’s psychoacoustics, and why most people are completely happy with their $100 bluetooth speaker that goes down to 60Hz…

There is another - purely technical - problem with reproduction of very, very low musical content. Unfortunately I am currently unable to find and link to the video but it was Peter Lyngdorf who drew my attention to this nifty but real calculation:

We all came to expect pretty high THD numbers in the bass region. Especially for small speakers value up to or in excess of 100% are not uncommon. When we come to se e.g. a k2 value of 10% in the lowest bass registers we generally regard this as pretty decent for low bass, right? I do, or more precisely, I did.

Now, imagine you approach to improve your system by adding a subwoofer that will play down to 20 Hz, even if it results in 10 - 20 % k2 at higher levels. Still sounds like a decent improvement ...

... until you take a look at the SPL curves for equal loudness. Depending on level our hearing ist roughly 20 to 15 dB less sensitive at 20 Hz than it is at 40 Hz. Unfortunately, a k2 value of 10 - 20 % means that the actual output (which happens to be 40 Hz as we are talking k2) is just ... well ... 20 to 15 dB below the 20 Hz fundamental.

Conclusion: Our nice 20 Hz output could be more or less entirely masked by distortion. For movies and games you would still get a lot of possibly welcome extra oomph. But you cannot say you really got higher fidelity music playback this way.

I've been a subwoofer sceptic for decades rather than years when it comes to music. I'm sort of a convert now, but still I think quality is more important than quantity when trying to extend the lower frequency range of your system.

 

[harkpabst]

There are no technical advantage with a very slim baffle, theres gonna be some penalty with the needed boost, but it makes the speaker look beautiful.

I disagree. It all starts making sense if you quit looking at on-axis response only. An ideal baffle should be either infinitesimally small or infinit.

Edit:
Since this is impossible there are some worse and some better compromises in between, of course. Mostly regarding the shape.

There is no change of the physical laws.

I agree.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

To sustain 700w over let’s say 5h you would need another 2 towers made of batteries, weighing 60kg and costing another 6k.

Or a Ford F-150 Lightning.

 

[killdozzer]

Tech moves forward and it gets greener. Give it another 5 years.

You gotta be kiddin'!?

 

[killdozzer]

Hard to swallow when you think about big speakers like ATC SCM50

Not at all. These are not in the SCM50 category. Also, they don't have width, but they do have depth so some volume is there. Furthermore, volume is related to port, these are closed from what I managed to gather, so volume is not what they were after. There's also u quite substantial baffle for woofers which is really interesting design - woofers with a big baffle, mid with very slim baffle (which shouldn't be measured at 13cm but to the point where the curvature starts, so even more narrow).

And, in the end, easier to brace as I offered earlier to provide a link to a video where Mr. Oclee explains this.

 

[JulianFP]

totally not true. there are several of us out there that did sink a lot of $ into audio and learned the law of diminishing results.

I CAN buy pretty much anything I want but feel foolish in doing so unless there are truly meaningful benefits I enjoy. the days when I felt compelled to impress people are long gone, I am very secure with my choices and don't need to impress anybody... I have about $35k of unused audio equipment I have kept but don't use anymore. Admittedly I also have grown tired of allocating so much space and attention to audio equipment, its sprawl and the wasted time in matching and optimal setup. the alternatives to that started appearing with ever better active loudspeakers and now stuff like the LS60.

I enjoy elegant simplicity and what you could call the ephemeral nature of audio these days... the less of it I see, the easier the ownership is... the much better. I want to listen to great music. not wrestle with boxes and changes and setup. I still want pride of ownership, don't get me wrong. but it's changed for me... and the market is changing fast and I don't think traditionalist audiophiles "get it"...

I already simplified my environment with zero concessions to sound quality to me, and I feel something like the LS60 totally is on my roadmap...

Absolutely. As well as the laws of diminishing returns I have also found that when expectations are factored in it can actually be a better experience to buy "cheaper" stuff ("cheaper" in quotes since it's all relative). I had a pair of Meridian actives bought new in 1994 (or was it 1995?) that at the time were pretty cutting edge and, in today's money, probably cost not far off the price of a new small car. When they broke a couple of years ago (25+ years; not bad at all) I decided I didn't need to leap back to a similar high-end system and didn't want huge black boxes in my living room anymore. I was still sold on the simplicity and lack of clutter from active so I ended up with the 1st generation KEF LS50W. I can honestly say that I was happier with my LS50W purchase than I was with my previous Meridian purchase because, having dropped down a few rungs on the relative cost ladder (converted into today's money), my expectations had only been met by the Meridians whereas they had been comfortably exceeded by the LS50Ws. Bass was the only thing I missed so I bought a couple of cheap B&W subs as a placeholder and was considering getting a couple of KC62 this year but now, once trade-in of my LS50W plus stands plus B&W subs is factored in, it shouldn't be that much more to upgrade the whole setup to LS60 which is something that I'm now definitely considering.

One thing I note is that KEF got raked over the coals by quite a few people on the KEF section of the Roon forum for announcing the version 2 (meta) LS50W as "Roon Ready" with a footnote saying it would be in a future firmware update and then it being quite a long time after release before the official Roon Ready certification was granted. I notice that there is the same qualification about Roon Ready certification for the LS60. It is Roon who have to officially grant the certification so we don't know for sure at which end the holdups came from last time, and frankly I didn't see it as such a huge deal since the gen 2 LS50Ws were usable with Roon prior to certification, but I wonder whether the official stamp of approval will happen slightly more quickly this time.

 

[Tangband]

I disagree. It all starts making sense if you quit looking at on-axis response only. An ideal baffle should be either infinitesimally small or infinit.

I dont agree, theres gonna be losses without any baffle and the diffraction problem will be terrible at the edges around the drivers. Im sceptic.

Can you link to any scientific paper that explain your statement ?
I have one that shows very clearly the dissadvantages of narrow baffles. From GRIMM audio.

Read more here:

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/speakers.pdf

 

[killdozzer]

Speaking of bass, the LS60 is meant to be an all-in-one. The earc HDMI assumes it will be used for film and tv audio, and in that, the lower extension is a good idea for sound effects.

In summary, I'm curious to listen to Doom Eternal playing on them.

I also think that the crowd who is mainly music and not so much in movies will use these without subs. I think the KEF went for this deliberately. They are aiming for a full range medium room tower in a classical sense from what I can see, but "full range" extended with the home cinema. To be honest, speakers are not to be blamed for this.

Full range today goes beyond of what was once considered full range.

 

[Vacceo]

There is another - purely technical - problem with reproduction of very, very low musical content. Unfortunately I am currently unable to find and link to the video but it was Peter Lyngdorf who drew my attention to this nifty but real calculation:

We all came to expect pretty high THD numbers in the bass region. Especially for small speakers value up to or in excess of 100% are not uncommon. When we come to se e.g. a k2 value of 10% in the lowest bass registers we generally regard this as pretty decent for low bass, right? I do, or more precisely, I did.

Now, imagine you approach to improve your system by adding a subwoofer that will play down to 20 Hz, even if it results in 10 - 20 % k2 at higher levels. Still sounds like a decent improvement ...

... until you take a look at the SPL curves for equal loudness. Depending on level our hearing ist roughly 20 to 15 dB less sensitive at 20 Hz than it is at 40 Hz. Unfortunately, a k2 value of 10 - 20 % means that the actual output (which happens to be 40 Hz as we are talking k2) is just ... well ... 20 to 15 dB below the 20 Hz fundamental.

Conclusion: Our nice 20 Hz output could be more or less entirely masked by distortion. For movies and games you would still get a lot of possibly welcome extra oomph. But you cannot say you really got higher fidelity music playback this way.

I've been a subwoofer sceptic for decades rather than years when it comes to music. I'm sort of a convert now, but still I think quality is more important than quantity when trying to extend the lower frequency range of your system.

Some films and games incluye subsonic elements around 13hz. When your rig can make your ribcage rattle (because those frequencies cannot be heard), the feeling is amazing.

 

[pablolie]

You don't listen to electronic, or other modern music with sub-60 Hz bass? Anything with a Roland 808? That goes back a fair way now. There's no accounting for taste, and I'm not criticising yours, but characterising stuff you don't happen to listen to as "artificial bass overload" or not "real music" is ignorant at best. Even relatively genteel stuff like London Grammar lays out some low notes: if a composition includes them, I prefer to hear them.

I said "boosting" - not "omitting".

 

[ebslo]

Some films and games incluye subsonic elements around 13hz. When your rig can make your ribcage rattle (because those frequencies cannot be heard), the feeling is amazing.

I just put on headphones and sit on the washing machine.

 

[Vacceo]

I just put on headphones and sit on the washing machine.

That is an excellent choice. Now, imagine a subwoofer the size of that washing machine...

 

[ebslo]

That is an excellent choice. Now, imagine a subwoofer the size of that washing machine...

Nice, but seriously, if I needed frequencies that low I'd just install seat shakers.

 

[Vacceo]

Nice, but seriously, if I needed frequencies that low I'd just install seat shakers.

A KC62 and 92 will reproduce those frequencies. Sure, not super loud, but you'll experience them.

 

[Grotti]

I haven't read the entire thread and it may have been mentioned before: price in Europe will be 6599 Euro a pair .

Source with a purely subjective first listening experience at a press event (German language only, sorry) :

KEF LS60 Wireless schon gehört: Aktive Standlautsprecher für höchste Ansprüche

Zum Markenjubiläum gönnt sich KEF etwas Besonderes und stellt der erfolgreichen LS50 Wireless die Standlautsprecher-Version KEF LS60 Wireless zur Seite. HIFI.DE hat das smarte Highend-System schon gehört.

hifi.de

Sometimes I wish KEF would sell directly to customers, so more people could afford their speakers. Just speaking for myself: I don't want to spend ruffly 40 % of the price to support a dealer for a 20 Minute audition, when it is crucial to listen to the speaker at home anyways.... And I say this having sold KEF speakers for some years to earn my living ....

 

[Vacceo]

I haven't read the entire thread and it may have been mentioned before: price in Europe will be 6599 Euro a pair .

Source with a purely subjective first listening experience at a press event (German language only, sorry) :

KEF LS60 Wireless schon gehört: Aktive Standlautsprecher für höchste Ansprüche

Zum Markenjubiläum gönnt sich KEF etwas Besonderes und stellt der erfolgreichen LS50 Wireless die Standlautsprecher-Version KEF LS60 Wireless zur Seite. HIFI.DE hat das smarte Highend-System schon gehört.

hifi.de

Sometimes I wish KEF would sell directly to customers, so more people could afford their speakers. Just speaking for myself: I don't want to spend ruffly 40 % of the price to support a dealer for a 20 Minute audition, when it is crucial to listen to the speaker at home anyways.... And I say this having sold KEF speakers for some years to earn my living ....

If you know about the trucks transporting the blades, send me a message...