KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[KMO]

Non-digital would disturb my OCD, but I expect it would sound fine.

Almost every single issue around ADCs and DACs, and differences in performance between them, pales into insignificance compared to speaker differences.

If a better speaker adds an extra pointless DAC+ADC cycle, it's a price worth paying. Unless the ADC or DAC is just outright faulty and falling off the end of one of Amir's charts.

Oh, and you can't really blame KEF for requiring an analogue connection for this use case, as the standard consumer AVR only has analogue pre-out. The volume control and level trims are generally analogue, so there's is no true digital "pre-out" available, even if you were to tap into the AVR internals.

Really we need to see some proper standardisation for digital multichannel pre-out connections.

 

[Vacceo]

Oh you mean to use wireless speakers for entire setup.
Unless KEF comes up with tech to allow wireless streaming of channels from processor it wouldn't be good
You would need to run long cables to each speaker and have most a XLR converter for lengths like that - I do wonder if active converter would be required or simply passive xlr to RCA Cable to connect to KEF wireless speaker?
But anyway they are too expensive, multichannel amp + ls50 much cheaper

And those speakers still need to be plugged. Think about the fun with Atmos satellites...

I am confident, though, that the LS60 design innovations will permeate to the R series.

 

[Axo1989]

Almost every single issue around ADCs and DACs, and differences in performance between them, pales into insignificance compared to speaker differences.

If a better speaker adds an extra pointless DAC+ADC cycle, it's a price worth paying. Unless the ADC or DAC is just outright faulty and falling off the end of one of Amir's charts.

Assumed knowledge when reading my statement.

Oh, and you can't really blame KEF for requiring an analogue connection for this use case, as the standard consumer AVR only has analogue pre-out. The volume control and level trims are generally analogue, so there's is no true digital "pre-out" available, even if you were to tap into the AVR internals.

Really we need to see some proper standardisation for digital multichannel pre-out connections.

I have no interest in "standard consumer AVR" however but I don't blame KEF. That aside, how would you do the centre do you reckon, that interests me more.

 

[Daka]

And those speakers still need to be plugged. Think about the fun with Atmos satellites...

I am confident, though, that the LS60 design innovations will permeate to the R series.

Oh yeah plugged with thicker cable also - I prefer normal thin speaker cables the ideal with that.

 

[Vacceo]

Assumed knowledge when reading my statement.


I have no interest in "standard consumer AVR" however but I don't blame KEF. That aside, how would you do the centre do you reckon, that interests me more.

Voodooless linked a center design inspired by the Blades that looked turbo interesting...

 

[Sashoir]

This is an intriguing looking product to be sure...but I'm sort of scratching my head a little over the point of the design.

It seems to be trying to combine a "lifestyle" product, deliberately targeting reducing the profile and size while at the same time asking "audiophile" pricing.

In other words: the aesthetic design goals seem to target people who aren't in to the gear (hence making it more lifestyle diminutive), yet the people most likely to be interested in paying that much money are audiophiles, people in to the gear, who would generally have less problem with a larger design.

Don't get me wrong, I personally really care about aesthetics and don't want monster speakers dominating my room. But all the excitement about these speakers is coming from the audiophile community who would pay these type of significant sums for speakers. In that context, the amount of effort that went in to squeezing these new LS60s to such a diminutive profile seems almost a bit odd. Most are excited about the potential performance of these speakers "a smaller, more affordable active version of the Blade." Seems to me the audience willing to pay for such an item would mostly have been fine with a somewhat wider baffle or somewhat larger cabinet size, for instance.

But, hey, wuddoiknow? Kef no doubt has done their marketing research.

I think tolerance for equipment footprint varies a good deal by location, even in urban areas. A person with the same relative income and marginal propensity to consume audio products in London or Zürich may have 40% of the floor space vs. Phoenix or Brisbane.

 

[oivavoi]

I think tolerance for equipment footprint varies a good deal by location, even in urban areas. A person with the same relative income and marginal propensity to consume audio products in London or Zürich may have 40% of the floor space vs. Phoenix or Brisbane.

Yap. Plus, having a smaller concentric driver in the front means wider dispersion and possibly less detrimental diffraction effects. Narrow baffle speakers often image well to my ears. Even in cost-no-object and space-no-object scenarios my assumption is that I would probably prefer this iteration to a similar speaker with a 5-inch concentric driver.

 

[JulianFP]

Yap. Plus, having a smaller concentric driver in the front means wider dispersion and possibly less detrimental diffraction effects. Narrow baffle speakers often image well to my ears. Even in cost-no-object and space-no-object scenarios my assumption is that I would probably prefer this iteration to a similar speaker with a 5-inch concentric driver.

Interesting and relevant to my dilemma. I currently have a pair of the original version 1 LS50 Wireless paired with a couple of B&W ASW608 subwoofers that I got a good deal on and were intended to be placeholders until I could identify something better. Aesthetics is important to me so compact and white are two key criteria. Along came the 2nd generation LS50W and the KC62 subwoofer and I was all set to upgrade to a pair of LS50W mk2 plus twin KC62 (once KEF have resolved an apparent issue with the KC62) but now I'm wondering how the absolute audio quality will compare between the latest generation LS50W plus twin KC62 vs the LS60. Once the official LS50 mk2 stands are included the price of LS50W (~£2,200) + stands (~£400)+ twin KC62 (2 x ~£1,300) is about £5,200 so not a huge difference vs the LS60s. I guess that with twin KC62 giving 1000W amplification in each sub the bass is probably going to go deeper but the integration between all the drivers will be as optimal as KEF can get it with the LS60 vs being left to the user to integrate the LS50W and subs which not everyone will be able to do a good job of. And then there is the driver positioning on the LS60 to give the single coherent source plus the effects you mention all contributing to better imaging.

The LS60 would also avoid that KC62 issue I alluded to which I've read a lot about in the KEF section of the Roon forums. The issue apparently is that the KC62 needs a fairly high input level before it switches on so for quiet music listening, or TV that doesn't have explosions and stuff, the KC62 often won't come out of standby. I can certainly believe that because my B&W subs do similar but at least on the B&W there is a switch to bypass the auto-standby and have them permanently on. There are rumours in the Roon forum that KEF have said they will address this issue, possibly by having the LS50s send a higher out of band frequency to the sub to keep it switched on when the LS50W are active, but this issue has stopped me from replacing my B&W subs with KC62s until now. Perhaps just as well given that I now also have the LS60 as an option.

One thing that worries me a bit about the LS60 though is the side-firing drivers. How much clearance do people think the LS60 needs at either side in order for reflections off walls and/or furniture to not be a problem? My LS50Ws are either side of my chimney breast and I would prefer to keep them closer to the back wall rather than pulling them right into the room as seen in the first picture here for instance - https://www.stuff.tv/hot-stuff/kefs...e-a-slick-way-to-celebrate-its-60th-birthday/ . I would prefer to have my speakers either side of the chimney breast as opposed to in front of it so I would end up with about 25cm clearance between the side drivers and the chimney breast. I wonder whether that might have a horrible effect on the acoustics.

 

[lc155]

Looks quite good imo.

 

[Daka]

Interesting and relevant to my dilemma. I currently have a pair of the original version 1 LS50 Wireless paired with a couple of B&W ASW608 subwoofers that I got a good deal on and were intended to be placeholders until I could identify something better. Aesthetics is important to me so compact and white are two key criteria. Along came the 2nd generation LS50W and the KC62 subwoofer and I was all set to upgrade to a pair of LS50W mk2 plus twin KC62 (once KEF have resolved an apparent issue with the KC62) but now I'm wondering how the absolute audio quality will compare between the latest generation LS50W plus twin KC62 vs the LS60. Once the official LS50 mk2 stands are included the price of LS50W (~£2,200) + stands (~£400)+ twin KC62 (2 x ~£1,300) is about £5,200 so not a huge difference vs the LS60s. I guess that with twin KC62 giving 1000W amplification in each sub the bass is probably going to go deeper but the integration between all the drivers will be as optimal as KEF can get it with the LS60 vs being left to the user to integrate the LS50W and subs which not everyone will be able to do a good job of. And then there is the driver positioning on the LS60 to give the single coherent source plus the effects you mention all contributing to better imaging.

The LS60 would also avoid that KC62 issue I alluded to which I've read a lot about in the KEF section of the Roon forums. The issue apparently is that the KC62 needs a fairly high input level before it switches on so for quiet music listening, or TV that doesn't have explosions and stuff, the KC62 often won't come out of standby. I can certainly believe that because my B&W subs do similar but at least on the B&W there is a switch to bypass the auto-standby and have them permanently on. There are rumours in the Roon forum that KEF have said they will address this issue, possibly by having the LS50s send a higher out of band frequency to the sub to keep it switched on when the LS50W are active, but this issue has stopped me from replacing my B&W subs with KC62s until now. Perhaps just as well given that I now also have the LS60 as an option.

One thing that worries me a bit about the LS60 though is the side-firing drivers. How much clearance do people think the LS60 needs at either side in order for reflections off walls and/or furniture to not be a problem? My LS50Ws are either side of my chimney breast and I would prefer to keep them closer to the back wall rather than pulling them right into the room as seen in the first picture here for instance - https://www.stuff.tv/hot-stuff/kefs...e-a-slick-way-to-celebrate-its-60th-birthday/ . I would prefer to have my speakers either side of the chimney breast as opposed to in front of it so I would end up with about 25cm clearance between the side drivers and the chimney breast. I wonder whether that might have a horrible effect on the acoustics.

Low frequency is omnidirectional so it's not a problem where it's facing. You will get bigger room gain if closer to the wall or corner - that's all - you can EQ that.
KC62 digs deeper much deeper plus more power - depending on music type might be a big to little difference.
Also mind LS60 and LS50 are not the same in design in terms of MF - LS60 has narrower smaller driver and wider dispersion that will result in wider soundstage - to me this could be the biggest advantage of them.

 

[Zvu]

..........
Magnet material used for the Uni-Q midrange is certainly not the limiting factor in the design of LS60 Wireless. Increasing the driver's sensitivity does not change the displacement volume requirements at all, so for a given effective piston area you still need the same Xmax for playing down to the target lower frequency limit.

If you have have two ideal (flat frequency response from 100Hz-5000Hz) midranges with 90dB/1W/1m and 93dB/1W/1m, achieving loudness of 96dB at 400Hz at 1m distance will be quite different task for each of them.

If you don't believe me, put it in a simulator

 

[HeadDoc12]

Interesting and relevant to my dilemma. I currently have a pair of the original version 1 LS50 Wireless paired with a couple of B&W ASW608 subwoofers that I got a good deal on and were intended to be placeholders until I could identify something better. Aesthetics is important to me so compact and white are two key criteria. Along came the 2nd generation LS50W and the KC62 subwoofer and I was all set to upgrade to a pair of LS50W mk2 plus twin KC62 (once KEF have resolved an apparent issue with the KC62) but now I'm wondering how the absolute audio quality will compare between the latest generation LS50W plus twin KC62 vs the LS60. Once the official LS50 mk2 stands are included the price of LS50W (~£2,200) + stands (~£400)+ twin KC62 (2 x ~£1,300) is about £5,200 so not a huge difference vs the LS60s. I guess that with twin KC62 giving 1000W amplification in each sub the bass is probably going to go deeper but the integration between all the drivers will be as optimal as KEF can get it with the LS60 vs being left to the user to integrate the LS50W and subs which not everyone will be able to do a good job of. And then there is the driver positioning on the LS60 to give the single coherent source plus the effects you mention all contributing to better imaging.

The LS60 would also avoid that KC62 issue I alluded to which I've read a lot about in the KEF section of the Roon forums. The issue apparently is that the KC62 needs a fairly high input level before it switches on so for quiet music listening, or TV that doesn't have explosions and stuff, the KC62 often won't come out of standby. I can certainly believe that because my B&W subs do similar but at least on the B&W there is a switch to bypass the auto-standby and have them permanently on. There are rumours in the Roon forum that KEF have said they will address this issue, possibly by having the LS50s send a higher out of band frequency to the sub to keep it switched on when the LS50W are active, but this issue has stopped me from replacing my B&W subs with KC62s until now. Perhaps just as well given that I now also have the LS60 as an option.

One thing that worries me a bit about the LS60 though is the side-firing drivers. How much clearance do people think the LS60 needs at either side in order for reflections off walls and/or furniture to not be a problem? My LS50Ws are either side of my chimney breast and I would prefer to keep them closer to the back wall rather than pulling them right into the room as seen in the first picture here for instance - https://www.stuff.tv/hot-stuff/kefs...e-a-slick-way-to-celebrate-its-60th-birthday/ . I would prefer to have my speakers either side of the chimney breast as opposed to in front of it so I would end up with about 25cm clearance between the side drivers and the chimney breast. I wonder whether that might have a horrible effect on the acoustics.

I think the decision comes down to use and room. I have the LS50W2 plus 2 KC62s set-up you describe, and I am VERY happy. I use them for streaming hi-res music, vinyl, and TV. I live in a large city in the US, and my house has an open floorplan on the first floor, so not great from the acoustic perspective. I do listen to plenty of bass-heavy music, and also plenty that the LS50s can handle without subs. I do have the newer generation of KC62s, so the problem you describe is not as bad as when they first came out. In my experience, the signal doesn't have to be that loud to kick the subs on. And remember, the LS50W2s can play down to 45hz, so they sounded pretty great before I added the subs. The chimney issue you describe factors in, but really might not turn out to affect the sound that much at all. I suspect you'd be happy with either setup you choose, but if I were shopping today, I might go for the LS60s, because I know the placement of my subs is based much more on convenience and aesthetics than sound quality. The LS60 seems more user-friendly in terms of placement, and I wouldn't miss the extra bass too much. But I also have a different setup in another part of my house if I want to watch a big, dumb action movie.

 

[EdW]

So now we can state the following, the LS60 has better bass than the LS50, but if you want good bass in movies, do you still need a subwoofer?

KEF are recommending the KC62 or KF92. The combination of 2 KF92 with the LS60 could be very powerful but here in the UK there are a few deals on pristine ex demo Reference 5 (non meta) with full warranty at sufficiently less money to enable you to buy an Audiophonics Purifi stereo power amp as well. Not quite the same I know, but damn impressive.!

 

[Vacceo]

KEF are recommending the KC62 or KF92. The combination of 2 KF92 with the LS60 could be very powerful but here in the UK there are a few deals on pristine ex demo Reference 5 (non meta) with full warranty at sufficiently less money to enable you to buy an Audiophonics Purifi stereo power amp as well. Not quite the same I know, but damn impressive.!

Combine an R7 cabinet with two unicore sets for a single aparent source and that speaker will be amazing.

 

[HeadDoc12]

Combine an R7 cabinet with two unicore sets for a single aparent source and that speaker will be amazing.

I genuinely think you are describing the LS70, so we will have to wait a bit. With any luck, they will decide to put out the LS65...

 

[harkpabst]

If you have have two ideal (flat frequency response from 100Hz-5000Hz) midranges with 90dB/1W/1m and 93dB/1W/1m, achieving loudness of 96dB at 400Hz at 1m distance will be quite different task for each of them.

Yes, but that is a) trivial and b) doesn't change a thing. The higher efficiency is not miraculously "there" because of a stronger magnet or longer voicecoil wire in the air gap. At "low frequencies" (wavelength longer than cone dimensions) a speaker must move quite some air, even more air if you want to increase efficiency (or go deeper for that matter). More air to move means you need more displacement volume. More displacement volume means more excursion.

The air in front of the cone (or on the backside) doesn't know about what is moving the cone. Is it more electrical power and a less efficient driver or less electrical power and a more efficient driver. In the end both need to move the same amount of air for the same SPL at the same (low) frequency. That's it. I don't need no simulator for that.

 

[Daka]

KEF are recommending the KC62 or KF92. The combination of 2 KF92 with the LS60 could be very powerful but here in the UK there are a few deals on pristine ex demo Reference 5 (non meta) with full warranty at sufficiently less money to enable you to buy an Audiophonics Purifi stereo power amp as well. Not quite the same I know, but damn impressive.!

Still, discounted reference 5 are more expensive than ls60 + KF92.
The latter will kick ref 5 out of the park.
Moreover LS60 with exception of volume above 92-95db is pretty much ref 5 with meta with higher MF dispersion and therefore wider soundstage.
Unless you have a massive room and need that volume or hate ls60 aesthetics I would think it’s insane to go with ref 5.

 

[Vacceo]

I genuinely think you are describing the LS70, so we will have to wait a bit. With any luck, they will decide to put out the LS65...

Those would be the mini blades a lot of people have been yearning for. A full line of those for a HT...

 

[Daka]

I genuinely think you are describing the LS70, so we will have to wait a bit. With any luck, they will decide to put out the LS65...

Any leaks pointing to this?

 

[EdW]

Still discounted reference 5 are more expensive than ls60 + KF92.
The latter will kick ref 5 out of the park.

But ex demo are significantly cheaper and the workmanship on the Ref 5 is immaculate. As for SQ the Ref 5 is very good - it would be a great demo to hear Ref 5 vs LS60 + 2 KF92.
As a calibration, Jack Oclee Brown, in one of his recent interviews, reckoned that he might prefer the LS60 (no mention of subs) to the R7. I would have thought that might have been a relatively easy call though.