KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[ahofer]

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person make sense of an image based on several color measurements alone?

I can detect sophistry from a great distance without a measuring device.

If I compare spectral measurements of an image before and after it is put through some sort of reproduction mechanism, I can detect fidelity to the original quite well. This is how audio measurements are performed: there is a reference signal, not an absolute value.

If you like analogies, the music is the wine, the audio equipment is just the glass.

 

[EJ3]

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person make sense of an image based on several color measurements alone?

That is a very vague question.
You are asking for a specific answer to a vague question.
So I will answer with a least vague answer that I can give for the question (with caveats):
IF the question is what I am thinking about (ALL of the various color measurements used here & at Erin's Audio Corner):
So far, with 100% accuracy, (for me only [because everyone has different ideas of what is perfection to them]), unequivocally:
I have been able to make enough sense of those color measurements to know:
Which speakers are NOT worth my time auditioning.
Which IS quite helpful.
But there are also many other considerations: aesthetics, fit in the room, and others (and each persons idea & situation is different).
I am also very good at detecting sophistry. Near & far.
It is incredibly fun being annoying to those that use that technic.
But, sometimes I just don't have the time to enjoy it.
This is, unfortunately for me, one of those times.
Perhaps another time. Or maybe not.

 

[tmtomh]

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person make sense of an image based on several color measurements alone?

As @ahofer notes, your analogy is fatally flawed.

The “image” is a particular musical signal or recording, not a reproduction device.

 

[ppierre]

As @ahofer notes, your analogy is fatally flawed.

The “image” is a particular musical signal or recording, not a reproduction device.

I know, I was making a "sophism" about:

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person predict sound based on measurements alone?

It doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[ban25]

I wonder if the issue is 1) we can't measure everything in sound yet or 2) interpreting the measurements we have 100% accurately is nigh on impossible. Perhaps all the tiny variations in something like a FR curve combine in a way where only general trends can be accurately predicted, not the many nuances in sound the speakers actually produce with the music we prefer.

What do others think about this?

Sound is just a mechanical wave through a medium (fluid or gas, atmosphere in this case).

 

[traind]

I know, I was making a "sophism" about:

It doesn't make sense to me either.

My question was related to DrDansil's post where he stated:

"I am no expert in interpreting those graphs. To me the graphs of the Triton 5's and the Reference look pretty close. They don't sound the same. I paid exactly the same for both speakers, the 5's were new and the Refererence were used. I don't think I'm biased based on what I paid. The Reference speakers are heads and tails better than the 5's. Measurements aren't everything."

I am still learning but my experience so far is that decently measuring speakers all sound good but not exactly the same. I personally do not have the ability to look at minor measurement differences and predict one speaker's sound vs anothers. I am legitimately wondering if anyone can. I have watched many of Erin's reviews and as good as he is, i dont get the sense that he can predict accurately how seemingly minor measurement variations will impact in room sound.

I like the idea of measurements as an early filter for in person listening tests before purchase. Doesnt sound controversial or novel but it does have wisdom.

 

[voodooless]

To me the graphs of the Triton 5's and the Reference look pretty close.

That’s where it all falls apart.

Measurements aren't everything

Easy to say if you don’t understand them.

 

[traind]

So those graphs Dansil quoted are very different to you? I did not look them up.

 

[voodooless]

So those graphs Dansil quoted are very different to you? I did not look them up.

They are as different as most speakers are different. “Pretty close” is laughable.

 

[ppierre]

... I personally do not have the ability to look at minor measurement differences and predict one speaker's sound vs anothers. I am legitimately wondering if anyone can. ...

Listening to white noise you can easily tell appart two speakers. It doesn't mean that the difference is significant listening to real music content. Worse you may heard more difference from Left an Right speakers than from speakers models : your hearing the room response.

Measurements won't tell you everything, but it will give you some certitude on the fidelity of the speaker. Some of the technological choices of a speaker can't be heard like you wouldn't ask to predict the different sound of two DAC! But some other technological choices are a compromise where your preference may matter.

For speaking of the Kef LS60, it is based on the idea of coaxial sound, even the woofers. Some other speaker may place the woofers near the floor (avoid SBIR). A different compromise. One can tell one from an other by looking at the radiation pattern. But it doesn't tell which one (compromise) he would prefer.

A other things that measurements can tell you : is your speaker will be able to cleanly deliver the sound level you expect, an other point where the Kef LS60 is a compromise. (But measurements will newer directly tell you if you will enjoy the music.)

... I like the idea of measurements as an early filter for in person listening tests before purchase. Doesnt sound controversial or novel but it does have wisdom.

Well you have your answer!

 

[ahofer]

They are as different as most speakers are different. “Pretty close” is laughable.

Yes, just had a look at the Triton measurements. Remember, even 1db differences are audible. Perhaps the lower resolution of the Triton measurements is disguising the departures from linearity, but I see up to 5db. Less bass below 100Hz (by 5-7db), and different frequency ranges of other aberrations. Consider the critical midrange. Look at 200-1500 Hz, where the KEF is emphasized by a max of 2db, while the Triton is de-emphasized by 3db until the very end of the range. 20-1500Hz is where the primary tones exist for most music, and where your ear will quickly pick up the most.

So yes, from measurements, I would expect these to sound very different. You could EQ the stuff above 200Hz, but the Triton would need a subwoofer as well to try to match the KEF. I doubt you could push the bass in EQ and get a clear sound, but maybe. Bass is a HUGE component of perceived differences (and preferences).

I didn’t look much at dispersion differences, since the presentation of the Triton measurements is a pain to compare to a spinorama, but eyeballing the Triton, it looks kinda uneven in the 15-30 degree range, whereas you’ll find the KEFs are more even. The sound power curves at the bottom of the spin are useful for seeing that. Unfortunately, there are no spinorama measurements I can find for the Triton.