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KEF LS50 Meta vs KEF R3

alitomr1979

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I had previously purchased the R3 to compare with Meta and ended up keeping the R3 and recommended them to a friend who came by and listened to mine and fell in love.

He just bought a set and ended up returning them because of what we both consider pretty crappy build quality. The KEF logo on the front of one of the speakers was crooked, the bass drivers weren't centered in their housings and the "flares" or circular trim pieces that surround both drivers were all over the place between speakers in terms of depth/height. Lastly where the rubber surround meets the cone of the mid range driver is really messy on both (looks like torn rubber).

I know it's nit picky but these are $1699 speakers and should not be in this kind of shape. Thankfully mine are not at all like this but yeah just sharing.

On another note I just got Focal 906's and in my room actually prefer them to the R3. My room is on the smaller side and the R3 makes vocals way too thick due to the room I think. Focals front port and bass roll off gives the impression of clarity.

R3 in my room is audible down to 32hz which is crazy.
R3s in small rooms need EQ and possibly always room treatment because they will most likely sound odd out of the box. I have been tinkering, moving and EQung and it’s really weird how much very slight changes in positioning or EQ can make them sound weird.

That congestion in the vocal range is probably due to high energy/pressure there. If you take care of it, which can be done often by EQing, you will hear impressive clarity in an even more impressive soundstage. Cliche but it’s as if having Diana Krall singing in front of you. Really nice.

@Descartes If you have a small room just get the metas and be over with it. It will be easier to work with and they are simply stunning. Otoh, if you are in the USA why not order both and try them and send back the one you like the least? That is acceptable for most dealers these days. They are making around 800-1000 from LS50 and R3 respectively, they can for sure spend the extra 50-100 in shipping so you can try the speakers.
 
OP
D

Descartes

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R3s in small rooms need EQ and possibly always room treatment because they will most likely sound odd out of the box. I have been tinkering, moving and EQung and it’s really weird how much very slight changes in positioning or EQ can make them sound weird.

That congestion in the vocal range is probably due to high energy/pressure there. If you take care of it, which can be done often by EQing, you will hear impressive clarity in an even more impressive soundstage. Cliche but it’s as if having Diana Krall singing in front of you. Really nice.

@Descartes If you have a small room just get the metas and be over with it. It will be easier to work with and they are simply stunning. Otoh, if you are in the USA why not order both and try them and send back the one you like the least? That is acceptable for most dealers these days. They are making around 800-1000 from LS50 and R3 respectively, they can for sure spend the extra 50-100 in shipping so you can try the speakers.
Yes I know speaker margins are 40 - 50 points!

My room is 18” x 20” x 10” in feet not huge but good size. It is also treated and sound good without much EQ.

I currently use the LS50 first generation and they sound decent but I wonder if the R3 will sound better? The problem is that KEF will not sell a single R3 :( but they sell a single LS50 Meta!
 

alitomr1979

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Yes I know speaker margins are 40 - 50 points!

My room is 18” x 20” x 10” in feet not huge but good size. It is also treated and sound good without much EQ.

I currently use the LS50 first generation and they sound decent but I wonder if the R3 will sound better? The problem is that KEF will not sell a single R3 :( but they sell a single LS50 Meta!

I own the OG LS50 and I think the R3 are an improvement.

Why bother with a hard to get third R3 when you can get the R2C?
 

gmoney

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Interesting, Focsl in the US is way overpriced :(
Yeah the only way to get them at sane prices is import via eBay or buy 2nd hand. I think the 906 is actually on par with the R3 while also being way more lenient in terms of placement.
 

phoenixdogfan

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Yes I know speaker margins are 40 - 50 points!

My room is 18” x 20” x 10” in feet not huge but good size. It is also treated and sound good without much EQ.

I currently use the LS50 first generation and they sound decent but I wonder if the R3 will sound better? The problem is that KEF will not sell a single R3 :( but they sell a single LS50 Meta!
Maybe you could find someone to go halfsies with you and buy 3 pairs of Ref 3's. That way each of you could have a L-C-R combination for you home theater. The OG LS 50's make excellent surrounds, btw. I have them in my small room with the Meta's as my fronts.
 

Crosstalk

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I had previously purchased the R3 to compare with Meta and ended up keeping the R3 and recommended them to a friend who came by and listened to mine and fell in love.

He just bought a set and ended up returning them because of what we both consider pretty crappy build quality. The KEF logo on the front of one of the speakers was crooked, the bass drivers weren't centered in their housings and the "flares" or circular trim pieces that surround both drivers were all over the place between speakers in terms of depth/height. Lastly where the rubber surround meets the cone of the mid range driver is really messy on both (looks like torn rubber).

I know it's nit picky but these are $1699 speakers and should not be in this kind of shape. Thankfully mine are not at all like this but yeah just sharing.

On another note I just got Focal 906's and in my room actually prefer them to the R3. My room is on the smaller side and the R3 makes vocals way too thick due to the room I think. Focals front port and bass roll off gives the impression of clarity.

R3 in my room is audible down to 32hz which is crazy.
R3s in small rooms need EQ and possibly always room treatment because they will most likely sound odd out of the box. I have been tinkering, moving and EQung and it’s really weird how much very slight changes in positioning or EQ can make them sound weird.

That congestion in the vocal range is probably due to high energy/pressure there. If you take care of it, which can be done often by EQing, you will hear impressive clarity in an even more impressive soundstage. Cliche but it’s as if having Diana Krall singing in front of you. Really nice.

@Descartes If you have a small room just get the metas and be over with it. It will be easier to work with and they are simply stunning. Otoh, if you are in the USA why not order both and try them and send back the one you like the least? That is acceptable for most dealers these days. They are making around 800-1000 from LS50 and R3 respectively, they can for sure spend the extra 50-100 in shipping so you can try the speakers.
Did anyone try eqing 3 db up on the tweeter for any reason. I ordered a r11 and at the store I liked what I heard. Then upon looking the graph, I saw it has a 3db drop to the 10khz.. should I pull down the bass region down or push up the treble to match rest of the spectrum. Will it distort the tweeter ?
 

dshreter

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Did anyone try eqing 3 db up on the tweeter for any reason. I ordered a r11 and at the store I liked what I heard. Then upon looking the graph, I saw it has a 3db drop to the 10khz.. should I pull down the bass region down or push up the treble to match rest of the spectrum. Will it distort the tweeter ?
You should be fine with a 3db boost. But I would measure at home before deciding what to actually EQ. In room response is so sensitive to placement and the room, that you might find that’s not even noticeable compared to some bigger stuff
 

alitomr1979

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Did anyone try eqing 3 db up on the tweeter for any reason. I ordered a r11 and at the store I liked what I heard. Then upon looking the graph, I saw it has a 3db drop to the 10khz.. should I pull down the bass region down or push up the treble to match rest of the spectrum. Will it distort the tweeter ?

As I mentioned earlier it is impressive to me how much the R3s change with very slight position changes and with very small EQ.

I had been listening with only the subs EQed, and last night I measured and noticed the cause of “some strange vocals sometimes”: a big dip at 120hz. I pushed the speakers closer to the wall, put the crossover at 120hz (from 80hz, my ports are closed with the foam bungs) and applied EQ, adding a few dBs to around 400hz, and also above 10khz and wow. Everything is now much more clear, especially the vocals. Having treated the room for early reflections has help a ton definitely, because before treatments adding to the treble made a difference and to me personally was preferred, but I can’t deny I felt some harshness that now is simply gone.

I invite you to try both. I didn’t treat these early reflections with big bass traps, I used acoustic panels from Rhino acoustics and they made an important difference.

EDIT: If it will distort will depend more on how much your EQ taxes the amplifier. I EQ using Roon DSP and it is great. I don’t hear any added distortion. I do have a 500wpc, 750wpc @ 4ohm, Peachtree Amp500.
 
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Crosstalk

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it is impressive to me how much the R3s change with very slight position changes
After having a good directivity on paper, is this something still should be happening ? This is something which bothered me with previous speaker and I went for the kef thinking only a dircetivity can ease of the issues with placement. Then what is the advantage of having a coaxial driver against the traditional driver here ?
 

Crosstalk

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You should be fine with a 3db boost. But I would measure at home before deciding what to actually EQ. In room response is so sensitive to placement and the room, that you might find that’s not even noticeable compared to some bigger stuff
At the store against a canton reference 7k and 5k the kef sounded very “vieled” but had more forward vocals. The cantons have flat treble. Don’t know if my room will compensate it. My previous speakers were canton vento 880.2 It had too much sparkle to the point of annoying without eq. The problem was the midbass and woofers weren’t enough loud to balance it out. With the higher end cantons with top end sparkle is there but the other drivers muffle to to make it flat somehow. But knowing cantons, I wanted not to try the the opposite. Kefs to me are muffled but now am worried if room doesn’t boost the sparkle I might end up having a midbass boosted system as the r11 has 36hz at -3db. And up to around 1khz it’s 3db boosted. Compareivelty its -3db for 10khz. So there is a 6db between midbass and upper treble on kef. Somehow despite all this on paper in the store I absent minded Ended up listening to that speaker for 30 minutes.
 

alitomr1979

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After having a good directivity on paper, is this something still should be happening ? This is something which bothered me with previous speaker and I went for the kef thinking only a dircetivity can ease of the issues with placement. Then what is the advantage of having a coaxial driver against the traditional driver here ?
I don’t know. What I can assure you is that if the coaxial driver is supposed to make the speakers less sensitive to placement, they failed with the R3s. I don’t know if in my case it is because of the very small room I have them in (only 10x11ft), but they do change a lot and the sweet spot, especially when it comes to imaging/soundstage is definitely very narrow. I move my head and instruments (and vocals) go from being precisely in one spot (vocals dead center) to being all over. What I have noticed is that overall clarity is not necesaarily affected. Maybe that’s what they achieve with the coaxial design?
 

alitomr1979

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At the store against a canton reference 7k and 5k the kef sounded very “vieled” but had more forward vocals. The cantons have flat treble. Don’t know if my room will compensate it. My previous speakers were canton vento 880.2 It had too much sparkle to the point of annoying without eq. The problem was the midbass and woofers weren’t enough loud to balance it out. With the higher end cantons with top end sparkle is there but the other drivers muffle to to make it flat somehow. But knowing cantons, I wanted not to try the the opposite. Kefs to me are muffled but now am worried if room doesn’t boost the sparkle I might end up having a midbass boosted system as the r11 has 36hz at -3db. And up to around 1khz it’s 3db boosted. Compareivelty its -3db for 10khz. So there is a 6db between midbass and upper treble on kef. Somehow despite all this on paper in the store I absent minded Ended up listening to that speaker for 30 minutes.

There you go. The R11 are definitely more mellow than the R3. I don’t like mellow, to the point that I am sure what I loved about the Metas was that added top end energy when compared to the R3s.

Maybe the R11 you demoed had EQ applied? Any chance? Or maybe even when the highs were “lacking” to your usual taste you really liked the things in which they shine, which I must say are now minor or trivial. They are awesome speakers. I’ve never heard them in house but I’ve heard them in my local dealer. I even said I was going to spend an afternoon there with the R11s when I bought the R3s and they were happy to
Have me. I should do that…
 

alitomr1979

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If you are worried about disliking the R11 sound signature or growing bored of it because of the lack of top energy, and you room is not huge (say less than 16 by 20 feet), I am sure you would be blown away by the metas with two SB3000 or SB3000 micro subs. That’s a hell of a sound you can get for the money. Output will be a little compromised if you listen very loud, but we tested the metas with one SB3000 In my uncle’s living room and Incan tell you they can rock in a 10 by 20 feet living room, open to a man cave and the dining room. Demo them!
 

Crosstalk

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I don’t know. What I can assure you is that if the coaxial driver is supposed to make the speakers less sensitive to placement, they failed with the R3s. I don’t know if in my case it is because of the very small room I have them in (only 10x11ft), but they do change a lot and the sweet spot, especially when it comes to imaging/soundstage is definitely very narrow. I move my head and instruments (and vocals) go from being precisely in one spot (vocals dead center) to being all over. What I have noticed is that overall clarity is not necesaarily affected. Maybe that’s what they achieve with the coaxial design?

If you are worried about disliking the R11 sound signature or growing bored of it because of the lack of top energy, and you room is not huge (say less than 16 by 20 feet), I am sure you would be blown away by the metas with two SB3000 or SB3000 micro subs. That’s a hell of a sound you can get for the money. Output will be a little compromised if you listen very loud, but we tested the metas with one SB3000 In my uncle’s living room and Incan tell you they can rock in a 10 by 20 feet living room, open to a man cave and the dining room. Demo them!
I liked the metas too but r11 Was sounding somehow "big" full bodied like they look. So, at the time of buying I think thats what made me decide it over everything else. It had that big speaker vibe that used to get from those vintage speakers with 12 inch drivers but more agile like a new age speaker. Something like a sennheiser hd 650 with more speed
 

alitomr1979

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I liked the metas too but r11 Was sounding somehow "big" full bodied like they look. So, at the time of buying I think thats what made me decide it over everything else. It had that big speaker vibe that used to get from those vintage speakers with 12 inch drivers but more agile like a new age speaker. Something like a sennheiser hd 650 with more speed
Exactly. That’s how they are.

:drool:
 

alitomr1979

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And that’s their advantage against the Metas. Exactly the same as I think it is with the R3 vs Metas.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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The top end from the R series is more gentle, is not that tipical details in your face that gonna make most recording sounding bad

But you can always boost the top end with EQ, there is plenty of headroom because the speaker can play very loud, so yeah you can boost the bass, mids or highs, there is no problem in adding more top end to the speaker.
I don’t know. What I can assure you is that if the coaxial driver is supposed to make the speakers less sensitive to placement, they failed with the R3s. I don’t know if in my case it is because of the very small room I have them in (only 10x11ft), but they do change a lot and the sweet spot, especially when it comes to imaging/soundstage is definitely very narrow. I move my head and instruments (and vocals) go from being precisely in one spot (vocals dead center) to being all over. What I have noticed is that overall clarity is not necesaarily affected. Maybe that’s what they achieve with the coaxial design?
The coaxial was never supposed to make the speaker less sensitive to placement, the woofers are the problem in the room and these woofer have the typical design woofer + port, they aren't cardiod. There is design like whaferdale evo 4.4 that have the port in the middle, these port are a little more room friendly than the back-ports.

It's the typical hard to get right design ( woofer + back port ). You must EQ the speaker-room.


If the top end it's the problem and you want more sparkle in the cymbls and more '' hifi '' sounding you can always add a High shelf filter in APO EQ, it's very easy to do the filter, once you do that adjust to your personal taste, personally the sparkle in my r7 it's fine to me
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index.php
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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After having a good directivity on paper, is this something still should be happening ? This is something which bothered me with previous speaker and I went for the kef thinking only a dircetivity can ease of the issues with placement. Then what is the advantage of having a coaxial driver against the traditional driver here ?
Yes the directivity are going to help the UNIQ, but not the woofers
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Yes, but if @alitomr1979 felt sound changed with r3, it means that theory isn’t helping much in real life. R3 has one woofer and that should be the best out of the lot in case of the best directivity.
I think you are a bit lost here.
Directivity in the woofer area is omnidirectional in the typical designs. like 99%.

Funny enough having more than one woofer helps in things like in room cancelations.
 
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