KEF LS50 Meta Review (Speaker)

[nothingman]

Yeah 100hz definitely works. Hope to get a moment to share some REW plots in the near future (just basic in-room at MPL with Meta and KC62) but by no means should people think they HAVE to cross at 200hz with double subs. Also people should be clear about their SPL demands. My “loud” listening is usually registering about 80dbA / 85dbZ average according to my iPhone app. Listening position is an 8ft equilateral triangle.

 

[Helicopter]

I think you can even get away with crossing them over at 100 hz with a single sub. I did that with my OG LS 50's and didn't notice any discontinuities.

I would think for 2.1, if you cross high enough to locate the bass frequencies then you could just put the sub in the front and center.

 

[fordiebianco]

Hi, I’m also in the U.K. Can I ask where you bought these?

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com

 

[Daverz]

Well, at least this introduced me to the Japanese singer Aimer.

 

[MaxRockbin]

Seems this just ain't going away then. Amir has explained numerous times that with room modes EQed out the sound is much more convincing..

Maybe it isn't going away because the re-appraisal of the K3 is buried in a the subjective listening section of the review of the Revel F35!
(It took me a while to even find it.)
Referring to adding some EQ to remove a node peak at 102kHz:
Amir: "Boy, was that a miracle fix! Gorgeous detail was there with almost no loss in total bass energy. Indeed bass was now tighter. The "magic" that I heard in the Revel M16 was now imparted into KEF R3. "

 

[dfuller]

Common sense? In an audio thread? As Pres. Biden would say "Come on man"! I put in bold your assertion that you "feel" people are not testing their listening levels. I would go further and say "almost all" and since it is probably 90% of all audio people who have not tested this for themselves you would be on safe ground. The typical scenario is that MEN ESPECIALLY will go to "check something out" in audio by cranking it up louder than they will ever listen to it. It is fun to do but not useful at all for in home listening. But my point is that holding all speakers to an extremely high unrealistic standard is kind of silly. Look at all of Amir's test data. Many speakers do pretty good at 86db with distortion. Crank it up to 96db and most all of the smaller speakers start to fall apart. The issue is, most people will use 86db once in awhile, but 96? That is really pushing things. So you have to buy based on Amir's performance data and your own personal preference. If you use a high quality decent sub, then you will not care about 80hz and below in your bookshelf speakers. So, take his excellent data and personalize it for price, performance and visual esthetics. THAT is the absolute fantastic job Amir does for everyone by doing consistent testing across the board. You can compare speakers to each other and weed out the ones that are not even close to what you need. It is like having an awesome "buyers guide" online here at ASR. Just use it by personalizing it to your needs. Need I say more?

All of you engineers and other very smart people can disregard this post. I know you guys are looking at this stuff from more of a cutting edge perspective in audio equipment performance. If the reader is not an engineer or other very knowledgeable person, Amir offers the "Buying guide" service!

Here's the problem, though - music is not a flat power across the audible spectrum. In fact, it largely resembles pink noise, which has much more power in the low octaves than the higher ones. If you're listening at 83dB/pr average at 1KHz (which is where I'm at most of the time), it's far from unheard of to have the bass level 10dB higher than that. Plus, there's peak levels to take into account. Even on quite crushed pop and rock music a 10dB crest factor is not unheard of. You see where I'm going with this?

What would you consider better performing at this price point? I did research and honestly don't understand. Pretty new to the objective side of music, coming from head-fi and SBAF.

$1500 a pair, just from what's reviewed here and elsewhere with reliable measurements w/r/t distortion...
- Neumann KH120
- Genelec 8030C
- Focal Aria 906 and Shape 65
- Dynaudio X14

 

[eddantes]

On the subject of "listening volumes" and 86db being loud... Yes that is a fairly loud volume, but just as we discuss power in power amplifiers, that 86db is average, which means that some sounds will be louder, and that means that it's possible to push speakers into distortion for brief passages. That is especially true of the bass, as those low notes need to be at a higher volume to be perceptually equal... -> or so I understand...

All that this means is that low distortion at 96db, more or less guarantees that you are listining to distortion free music when averaging 86db at your listening chair. Not unlike having 200W+ of power in your amp gives enough headroom to keep you out of clipping or rising distortion of the amp.

In other words - headroom is good.

 

[aarons915]

Here's the problem, though - music is not a flat power across the audible spectrum. In fact, it largely resembles pink noise, which has much more power in the low octaves than the higher ones. If you're listening at 83dB/pr average at 1KHz (which is where I'm at most of the time), it's far from unheard of to have the bass level 10dB higher than that. Plus, there's peak levels to take into account. Even on quite crushed pop and rock music a 10dB crest factor is not unheard of. You see where I'm going with this?

You're making an even stronger case for multiple subwoofers for anyone who cares about bass. Where common sense comes into play is if someone like you buys these, sets them up properly with subs crossed around 100-120Hz then you'll know pretty shortly if they sound like they are playing loud enough without distortion for your loudest listening level.

On the subject of "listening volumes" and 86db being loud... Yes that is a fairly loud volume, but just as we discuss power in power amplifiers, that 86db is average, which means that some sounds will be louder, and that means that it's possible to push speakers into distortion for brief passages. That is especially true of the bass, as those low notes need to be at a higher volume to be perceptually equal... -> or so I understand...

All that this means is that low distortion at 96db, more or less guarantees that you are listining to distortion free music when averaging 86db at your listening chair. Not unlike having 200W+ of power in your amp gives enough headroom to keep you out of clipping or rising distortion of the amp.

In other words - headroom is good.

I don't disagree that headroom is good but this one odd thing I hear all the time. I say something like 85db is the loudest I ever listen and then someone chimes in with "Yeah but what about the 20 db peaks?" I don't know how other people measure volume but I set my SPL meter to max so it picks up the loudest peaks that I hit, meaning my average levels are probably closer to 75-78db. Surveys I've seen on listening levels shows this to be fairly typical but of course there are some who listen louder. In a small room at typical listening levels these are fine for me but obviously they aren't going to be able to fill a huge room at a 15 foot listening distance for someone who plays them in the 90db range regularly.

 

[MaxRockbin]

I don't disagree that headroom is good but this one odd thing I hear all the time. I say something like 85db is the loudest I ever listen and then someone chimes in with "Yeah but what about the 20 db peaks?"

Amir did a nice video on this whole subject. Though, like the "War to End All Wars," it didn't.
Amir: How Loud is Loud - YouTube

 

[sarumbear]

Unless the surround music is a "concert video" like this one from Prince mixed in Atmos and Auro3D

I wonder how they found that height information (Atmos) from a recording made in 1987?

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I had the r300 and I finded that the woofer give up too early, I cant just room eq them because the woofer start to make weird sounds at 100 120hz.., previous owner had the ls50 and say to me that this speakers doesnt have that problem as ls50 and the r300 can play louder.. So yeah that 5inch woofer its more than a problem... The r3 sounds much louder than r300, but i found a misstake using the r300 in mid or far field .. Many times at 1.5m I listrning music I heat the woofer making weird sounds.

I think is better save money and go with r3 and eq them to taste and add subs at 80hz. I also find many people only have 1sub not 2, for crossover higher you need 2 subs and set the metas nearly at 200hz which is a pain..
Also the r3r5r7r11 are point source as meta. Maybe the meta is more point source as pc speakers (?)

Even the R11 have 6.5", for me its for getting less distortion in 20hz-80hz to 200hz-400hz~ not for have that huge deep bass because if you have less distortion in the mid bass gonna be easier set the subs at 80hz, kef have their subs K92 Kc62 so..., the r3 gonna perform better in 80hz-300hz-400hz region

 

[hege]

I don't know how other people measure volume but I set my SPL meter to max so it picks up the loudest peaks that I hit, meaning my average levels are probably closer to 75-78db. Surveys I've seen on listening levels shows this to be fairly typical but of course there are some who listen louder.

Bass usually dominates the dB figures, so it's hard to compare tiny speakers to full range sets, also depends on musical tastes which vary from playing triangles to full on techno, and the possible bass tilt/house curve one uses. Also people report all sorts of crappy smartphone and vaguely weighted values.

UMIK-1/REW is good for measuring. My usual figures look like this:

Engaged listening: LAeq 75 LCeq 90 LZpeak 105
Relaxed/background listening: -10 all
Rocking out: +10 all
(note: this is with average full range music, not pink noise.. yeah I have slightly tilted up bass)

I think the most fair comparison would be ignoring bass and just use A-weighted values. But yeah.. I just basically ignore people claiming any db values unless they are clearly defined.

 

[Tangband]

You have the original LS50 so you should already know how high you need to cross them over to play as loud as you like I would think? Sometimes I get the feeling many people haven't actually measured how loud they listen to music because 85db at the listening position is extremely loud and you can see the distortion isn't that bad at the 86db @1 meter level, a 2nd order high pass in the 100-120Hz range will have them playing plenty loud with low distortion at those levels. I think the highest you would ever have to go is 150hz and only if you listen in the 90db range at your listening position. 150Hz is about the highest you can go with co-located subs before localization can be a real problem for most people also.



The 3mm excursion is the worst case scenario if you play them full range very loud, this debate is really pointless unless you don't use subs and listen at levels that cause permanent hearing damage. As I said above, crossing them at 100-120Hz is more than enough to minimize cone excursions enough where distortion is not a problem for the vast majority of people. Would I recommend a small speaker like this for Amir? Of course not but that's where we need to inject a little common sense into the discussion and know our listening levels.



I always thought a 6.5" would be too large to properly integrate with the tweeter in a 2-way but the Q350 shows that not to be the case so I agree and I'm not sure why they don't come out with an LS60 version. Size could be a factor, the Q350 is pretty massive for a bookshelf.

The thruth is that, even if Kef ls50 meta is a good loudspeaker , its rather expensive and its a passive loudspeaker that requires an amplifier.
And there is very tough competition in the form of Genelec 8030c .

Compair the distortion graphs .

 

[Ataraxia]

Has anyone else compared these to R3 besides @BrokenEnglishGuy ?

 

[Sancus]

The issue is, most people will use 86db once in awhile, but 96? That is really pushing things.

Completely false. I don't know why people keep forgetting that music has dynamic range but it does. I have material that hits 107dB when the average level is only 77. Unless you purely listen to heavily compressed pop music(no judgement here, if you do that's cool and then distortion doesn't matter for you) you should consider clean playback 20dB above your average level to be a basic requirement for a speaker.

So if you listen at 75dB, the 96dB test is 100% relevant and shows how much overhead you have for peaks.

I say something like 85db is the loudest I ever listen and then someone chimes in with "Yeah but what about the 20 db peaks?" I don't know how other people measure volume but I set my SPL meter to max so it picks up the loudest peaks that I hit, meaning my average levels are probably closer to 75-78db.

If you're using an SPL meter following the slow/fast standards, both of those numbers are averages so they don't show how loud things are momentarily getting in reality. REW will, however, show actual LZPeak. The difference is quite large.

 

[JWAmerica]

I would say for normal use as a stereo pair the distortion should be much lower at common listening level of 75-85db and at 85hz “normal” cross over to sub. Unless you intend to use them at high spl in a large living room at far field where floor-standers should be used instead

What is considered large or far field? I'm about 12.5' from my floorstanders.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Maybe it isn't going away because the re-appraisal of the K3 is buried in a the subjective listening section of the review of the Revel F35!
(It took me a while to even find it.)
Referring to adding some EQ to remove a node peak at 102kHz:
Amir: "Boy, was that a miracle fix! Gorgeous detail was there with almost no loss in total bass energy. Indeed bass was now tighter. The "magic" that I heard in the Revel M16 was now imparted into KEF R3. "

Still, Erin's review was pretty Meh on the R3 as well (subjective listening). It's hard to get that stuff out of your head and only look at graphs.

Erin said he have 2 rooms, in one of these room sounding meh and another great

--
The only thing about the R3 that i'm seeing is most of people get a little of cancelation in bass response most of the time or a bump... personally i got a cancelation at 100hz and a bump at 88hz with r7

 

[jhaider]

I gotta be honest that low end distortion performance is junk for how much these cost. Why would one buy these over half a dozen different better performing speakers at this price point instead?

Price isn't the only factor though. There's also size. It's a small speaker. Physics are physics - a 5" doughnut (woofer with a big hole for the tweeter and phase plug) can only move so much air. So logically one would expect bass capability to be at or below a good 4" woofer monitor, e.g. Neumann KH 80. In their size class what does have strong bass capability? JBL 705 is the only one that I can think of offhand that I know of. Triad has a 5" minimonitor with a ScanSpeak Revelator midwoofer, but that speaker also has a primitive flat waveguide for the tweeter. Devialet I don't have first-hand experience with, but @napilopez has shown they go low in a usable way.

That leaves out the question of audibility. I'm in the camp that says pair them with "flanking subs" crossed relatively high and you'd have really nice full range stereo speakers. Too bad KEF hasn't found a way to protect the coax, though. A round funky color grille a la Amphion would go such a long way...

 

[Djdhifi]

Relative newbie to the audio world and truly amazed by the level of knowledge many of you exhibit.

I currently have the LS50 Meta paired with a single KC62 and am pleased with their performance in a relatively small listening room. My question is what would the ideal Low Pass as well as High Pass setting be. I’m running a Parasound New Classic 200 integrated that gives me the option to set both.

 

[amirm]

The speakers aren't remotely in line (look at the tile lines). There's no wires to the speakers, the turntable or the system. There's a CD player and what looks like a tuner. Where's the amplifier?

I once asked a major speaker company for pictures they used in their catalog to use on our website. They sent me the original photoshop files. When I opened them, every image was a stock picture which they had then added the speaker images as layers to them! No original pictures were taken with speakers anywhere. Lots of work had gone into them with creating shadows, matching lighting, etc.