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Kef LS50 Meta NFS Measurements from Wakrwyn

napilopez

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Amir has measured a decent amount of both, I don’t recall seeing such.

Ah, I see what you mean -- I thought you meant the lines didn't cross, but i see now that they're off by a fraction of a decibel. Wouldn't worry too much about it though. FWIW, the on-axis, port-open bass matches my nearfield-summed quasi-anechoic measurement pretty perfectly. Mine in blue:

LS50M On-axis Warkyn.png


The rest of the measurements match very nicely too if we ignore the bass <200Hz since their spin is a closed port measurement and I measured with the port open.

LS50M Spin Warkyn.png

(Note the LW squiggle at 15khz is an artifact from trying to digitize warkwyn's measurement.)

This also reaffirms my initial belief that the spinorama in KEFs whitepaper is not quite representative of the final speaker. KEF's shows a downward tilt, while the speaker Warkwyn and I measured was flat or even ever so slightly bright. Here was how my measurements had compared against KEFs (mine are the solid lines in this one).

LS50 Meta mine vs KEF.png


I prefer the flatter profile anyhow, but curious what caused the discrepancy.

Looks like a BBC dip in there.

It is rather odd that KEF has that dip in the 1-4k range on so many of their speakers. It isn't widely advertised but I've heard they test many designs with blind listening panels similar to Harman so maybe they're onto something but I can't help but wonder why they don't just shoot for the typical neutral design. Maybe @jackocleebrown has some insight into this seemingly designed dip?

I really think that hardly qualifies as a BBC dip, and it's possible that very shallow dip looks worse than it is synce warkwyn is using a significantly taller scaling than amir.

In any case do keep in mind that, being a coaxial, this dip is unlikely to be more audible than the ER/PIR/SP dip caused on most non-coaxial speakers around the crossover. It is no worse than the crossover dip in the Genelec 8030Cs, for example.

1625177947718.png


It also very well possible the 4K peak will be more audible than the dip to some people. My own overwhelming impression of the LS50 metas was neutrality, not any kind of tuning.
 
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thewas

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It also very well possible the 4K peak will be more audible than the dip to some people. My own overwhelming impression of the LS50 metas was neutrality, not any kind of tuning.
I agree, my KH120 sounded more laid back at the presence region, my LS50 Meta don't give such a tonal impression, rather a tad more energy above which shows also on my LP MMM:

1625180375598.png
 

jhaider

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Sure, but there are magnitudes less people willing to have those in their living room.

IMO KH80/120 are far better looking then LS50. No grille is not acceptable to me.
 

napilopez

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And just to drive the point home... if the LS50M isn't neutral, neither is the Genelec 8030C ;)
LS50M vs 8030C.png


Also worth noting KEF typically designs with off-axis listening in mind (the manual tells you to listen off axis), so I don't think the on-axis peaking should be an issue. really 10-20degrees off axis is most relevant.

Also impressive how the Neumann KH 120 A (edit: KH 80 DSP as per explanation below) is more linear, has more bass extension, with built in amplifier costing roughly the same price per pair.

View attachment 138481

While I'd generally expect the KH120 to win, I would be less sure in a living room application when crossed with a sub, as the KH120 has two off-axis dips mostly caused by vertical directivity that make the in-room response a little less ideal than the KEF's might be.

LS50 vs kh120.png


Subjectively, I do think there is something to have almost perfect vertical directivity, especailly when moving around the house. A small, but generally positive effect, by my estimation. Would be interesting to see more direct comparisons. Obviously in a 1-on-1 sans subs the neumann has the advantage of probably playing louder cleaner -- and bass.
 
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Matias

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While I'd generally expect the KH120 to win, I would be less sure in a living room application when crossed with a sub, as the KH120 has two off-axis dips mostly caused by vertical directivity that make the in-room response a little less ideal than the KEF's might be.
Notice that Guy from Neumann corrected me that the Klippel measurement is from a KH 80, not a KH 120.
@SIY if you can fix the article would be great to avoid more confusion.
 

SIY

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Notice that Guy from Neumann corrected me that the Klippel measurement is from a KH 80, not a KH 120.
@SIY if you can fix the article would be great to avoid more confusion.

Are you sure you meant me?
 

Matias

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amirm

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And just to drive the point home... if the LS50M isn't neutral, neither is the Genelec 8030C ;)
Quite often I notice that a speaker is "bright" when it lacks bass. Such is in that comparison.
 

thewas

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Subjectively, I do think there is something to have almost perfect vertical directivity, especailly when moving around the house. A small, but generally positive effect, by my estimation. Would be interesting to see more direct comparisons.
Also when listening in nearfield where relative vertical head movements can quite change the vertical angle and at desktop setups where the reflection from the large surface plays a significant role, all reasons I sold the desktop KH120 which I had bought to replace my LS50 Anniversary model for my desktop system and returned back to them (with EQ) instead.
 

aarons915

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While I'd generally expect the KH120 to win, I would be less sure in a living room application when crossed with a sub, as the KH120 has two off-axis dips mostly caused by vertical directivity that make the in-room response a little less ideal than the KEF's might be.

Subjectively, I do think there is something to have almost perfect vertical directivity, especailly when moving around the house. A small, but generally positive effect, by my estimation. Would be interesting to see more direct comparisons. Obviously in a 1-on-1 sans subs the neumann has the advantage of probably playing louder cleaner -- and bass.

They do measure better in the spinorama but I also think vertical dispersion is more important than many give it credit for. The KH120 were very impressive in my living room and basically had me box up my R3 quick because I didn't realize how much I was missing the pure point source of the LS50's, the KH120 actually did it better than the R3, I assume because everything is playing from the woofer up to 2k. I would have ended up using the KH120 for my LCR no questions asked but they started fatiguing me badly, my ears were actually feeling numb in less than an hour, it was strange. The only reason that makes sense for that is due to their vertical response, they have large dips at 2 and 4k, leaving mostly a 3k peak which doesn't match the direct sound or the sidewall reflections. So I ended up going back to the LS50 which don't fatigue me at all after a bit of EQ. (I tried a ton of EQ on the KH 120 and nothing helped)

I think perfect vertical directivity is more than a subtle improvement myself and sitting vs standing isn't where I hear it. When I first compared a coaxial (KEF Q150) to a typical vertical aligned speaker they sounded more clear and better integrated to my ears, many more listening tests have continued to show a similar clarity compared to the typical speaker with Revel and the KH 120 getting close due to their great driver integration. The biggest difference I've heard was with a speaker with a RAAL 64-10 tweeter, A/B back and forth my LS50 actually sounded much bigger and since the RAAL has wider horizontal dispersion the difference can really only be explained in the vertical direction. Many people don't pay attention to vertical dispersion but I really think they should, there is a reason the Genelec One series is considered some of the best speakers you can buy.
 

phoenixdogfan

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They do measure better in the spinorama but I also think vertical dispersion is more important than many give it credit for. The KH120 were very impressive in my living room and basically had me box up my R3 quick because I didn't realize how much I was missing the pure point source of the LS50's, the KH120 actually did it better than the R3, I assume because everything is playing from the woofer up to 2k. I would have ended up using the KH120 for my LCR no questions asked but they started fatiguing me badly, my ears were actually feeling numb in less than an hour, it was strange. The only reason that makes sense for that is due to their vertical response, they have large dips at 2 and 4k, leaving mostly a 3k peak which doesn't match the direct sound or the sidewall reflections. So I ended up going back to the LS50 which don't fatigue me at all after a bit of EQ. (I tried a ton of EQ on the KH 120 and nothing helped)

I think perfect vertical directivity is more than a subtle improvement myself and sitting vs standing isn't where I hear it. When I first compared a coaxial (KEF Q150) to a typical vertical aligned speaker they sounded more clear and better integrated to my ears, many more listening tests have continued to show a similar clarity compared to the typical speaker with Revel and the KH 120 getting close due to their great driver integration. The biggest difference I've heard was with a speaker with a RAAL 64-10 tweeter, A/B back and forth my LS50 actually sounded much bigger and since the RAAL has wider horizontal dispersion the difference can really only be explained in the vertical direction. Many people don't pay attention to vertical dispersion but I really think they should, there is a reason the Genelec One series is considered some of the best speakers you can buy.
And you can get the Metas for a street price of $1200 pr.
 

jgazal

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I don’t know if anyone already explained what I am about to ask…
I suppose anechoic rooms, that are usually a metal room inside a brick room, have very rigid walls. I understand that size limits resolution of bass measurement.
What I would like to know is if, when using klippel equipment, the user needs to inform the materials the walls are made.
is there any difference when measuring bass inside a room of masonry walls or wood framed walls?
 

MZKM

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I don’t know if anyone already explained what I am about to ask…
I suppose anechoic rooms, that are usually a metal room inside a brick room, have very rigid walls. I understand that size limits resolution of bass measurement.
What I would like to know is if, when using klippel equipment, the user needs to inform the materials the walls are made.
is there any difference when measuring bass inside a room of masonry walls or wood framed walls?
The Klippel NFS removes any influence from the room (ideally; Amir’s initial measurements of complex speakers didn’t have super high accuracy in the bass).

But yes, the room construction does matter. In some KEF models for instance they offer port plug configurations if you are placing them in a room made of drywall or concrete/brick.
 

q3cpma

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And just to drive the point home... if the LS50M isn't neutral, neither is the Genelec 8030C ;)
View attachment 138549

Also worth noting KEF typically designs with off-axis listening in mind (the manual tells you to listen off axis), so I don't think the on-axis peaking should be an issue. really 10-20degrees off axis is most relevant.



While I'd generally expect the KH120 to win, I would be less sure in a living room application when crossed with a sub, as the KH120 has two off-axis dips mostly caused by vertical directivity that make the in-room response a little less ideal than the KEF's might be.

View attachment 138554

Subjectively, I do think there is something to have almost perfect vertical directivity, especailly when moving around the house. A small, but generally positive effect, by my estimation. Would be interesting to see more direct comparisons. Obviously in a 1-on-1 sans subs the neumann has the advantage of probably playing louder cleaner -- and bass.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.14795/page-2#post-460663
No real on-axis dip for the 8030C, Genelec's data is accurate on the matter. But it has a power response dip and is quite sensitive to vertical alignement.
 

amirm

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What I would like to know is if, when using klippel equipment, the user needs to inform the materials the walls are made.
No you don't. Klippel detects the direct sound of the speaker versus reflected ones using timing and filters out the reflections. So it is as if the walls don't exist. And if they don't exist, it doesn't matter what they are made out of!

In your room however, walls make a difference. The more flexible they are, they more they absorb bass for example instead of reflecting them.
 
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