KEF Ci3160RLM-THX In-Wall Speaker Review

[Thomas_A]

Question to @amirm ; is this speaker fastened on an MDF board during measurements? Just curious if it would be possible to compare with and without the board re the distortion at 500 Hz.

 

[vkvedam]

Thanks for the review @amirm, KEF never disappoints, engineering prowess!

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yes there is a reason not to do that. That sort of installation would be open baffle, instead of infinite baffle, which these are not designed for. The response will not be anything like what was measured.

Thanks. I obviously misunderstood how Amir made the measurements.

 

[Audiofirstdesigns_Harry]

Hi Amir, thanks for the review! Good to see my old work here back at KEF, brought back my memory.

We certainly had fun doing the measurements for the Ci in-wall stuff....

 

[amirm]

Question to @amirm ; is this speaker fastened on an MDF board during measurements?

Yes it is. As to your question, it is not very practical as there is no way to keep the thin and very heavy speaker vertical to measure it.

 

[Thomas_A]

Yes it is. As to your question, it is not very practical as there is no way to keep the thin and very heavy speaker vertical to measure it.

Thanks. The reason I ask that distortion did not look the same on Erins measurements. He used the same speaker but without the M suffix. Due to different drivers since they arre black? Or different mounting?

 

[MatthewS]

Thanks. The reason I ask that distortion did not look the same on Erins measurements. He used the same speaker but without the M suffix. Due to different drivers since they arre black? Or different mounting?

They are completely different speakers. He tested the prior generation that came out in 2013.

 

[Thomas_A]

They are completely different speakers. He tested the prior generation that came out in 2013.

Yes I can see they are different. But 2nd and third distortion is lower in the previous ones, what I can see re the 400-500 Hz region. And there is even a dip in the direct response not evident in spinorama of Amirs measurements. Coincidence or measurement/setup issues? First MDF resonance in spinorama is between 200-300 Hz, so it is a bit lower.

 

[nathan]

Soundstage depth is what I meant !
It is always flat when speakers are up against a wall or in the wall.

Not with a well designed speaker.

 

[Highvolt60]

Not with a well designed speaker.

I used to think that too (35+ years). Then I finally tried moving speakers (Arendal towers) out into the room (from 36" to 55" from baffle to wall) and used a Sub + minidsp (w/AFP's) to fill in the SBIR issues !

When I tried in the past, the loss of bass was a deal breaker regardless.

Now (bass issues mostly resolved) the stage is deep extending far beyond the speakers and you NEVER think the sound is coming from the speakers.
In my bedroom I have speakers right up against the wall and use a Wiim Ultra amps dsp/peq to get the response decent.
While this sounds great from a frequency response point of view, the stage is flat and never extends beyond the speakers (or wall).
If I'm laying in bed or watching TV this is perfect, just not for critical listening.

Admittedly this "depth" a bit of an acoustic trick and why so many love open baffle or dipoles.

As always, your mileage may vary...

 

[nathan]

I used to think that too (35+ years). Then I finally tried moving speakers (Arendal towers) out into the room (from 36" to 55" from baffle to wall) and used a Sub + minidsp (w/AFP's) to fill in the SBIR issues !

When I tried in the past, the loss of bass was a deal breaker regardless.

Now (bass issues mostly resolved) the stage is deep extending far beyond the speakers and you NEVER think the sound is coming from the speakers.
In my bedroom I have speakers right up against the wall and use a Wiim Ultra amps dsp/peq to get the response decent.
While this sounds great from a frequency response point of view, the stage is flat and never extends beyond the speakers (or wall).
If I'm laying in bed or watching TV this is perfect, just not for critical listening.

Admittedly this "depth" a bit of an acoustic trick and why so many love open baffle or dipoles.

As always, your mileage may vary...

Sorry I should have been more clear. Its not an issue if the speaker is correctly designed to be in the wall.

And as you have demonstrated, a speaker designed to be away from the wall sounds better when away from the wall.

It's just physics and managing SBIR in different ways.

 

[MKreroo]

I'm wondering if the engineering behind these in-wall can be translate to those picture frame, like the Ikea/Sonos collab one. Would be quite nice if Kef also release something similar.

 

[Thomas_A]

I used to think that too (35+ years). Then I finally tried moving speakers (Arendal towers) out into the room (from 36" to 55" from baffle to wall) and used a Sub + minidsp (w/AFP's) to fill in the SBIR issues !

When I tried in the past, the loss of bass was a deal breaker regardless.

Now (bass issues mostly resolved) the stage is deep extending far beyond the speakers and you NEVER think the sound is coming from the speakers.
In my bedroom I have speakers right up against the wall and use a Wiim Ultra amps dsp/peq to get the response decent.
While this sounds great from a frequency response point of view, the stage is flat and never extends beyond the speakers (or wall).
If I'm laying in bed or watching TV this is perfect, just not for critical listening.

Admittedly this "depth" a bit of an acoustic trick and why so many love open baffle or dipoles.

As always, your mileage may vary...

36" is too far out (I have 10.2" distance from center of tweeter to a damping panel placed on the wall behind the speaker. The panel is 2.75" deep including air gap.)

 

[AudioSceptic]

Sorry I should have been more clear. Its not an issue if the speaker is correctly designed to be in the wall.

And as you have demonstrated, a speaker designed to be away from the wall sounds better when away from the wall.

It's just physics and managing SBIR in different ways.

I know that this applies to studio monitors rather than a home setup, but think this is well worth reading <https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement>

 

[Dj7675]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF Ci3160RLM-THX in-wall home theater speaker using their meta materials. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $2,230 (each).
View attachment 474158
The Ci3160RLM-THX, unlike many in-wall speakers, looks quite nice without its grill so I chose to test it that way. Construction is by far heavier duty than any in-wall speaker I have tested. We are talking about drivers encapsulated in solid steel together with brackets sporting the same:
View attachment 474159
The thing is so heavy that I had to get help to lift it up for measurement! It is designed so that it could be bi-amped if needed.

If you are not familiar with my Klippel NFS tests, please watch my video on Understanding Speaker Measurements:

KEF Ci3160RLM-THX Speaker Measurement
As usual we start with our anechoic measurements, assuming there is an infinite baffle (wall):
View attachment 474160
I must say, I was not prepared to see such an excellent on and off-axis response! Other than a minor hiccup around 260 Hz, this would be a great measurement for any speaker, let alone an in-wall product.

Note: that dip may be due to resonances of the baffle we put the speaker in. So while it may happen with drywall/plaster as well, it is not directly the fault of the speaker.

Sensitivity is higher than average to boot (by 1 to 2 dBs). Our model for interpreting speaker preference is based on stand-alone speakers, not in-wall. But here, those results are so excellent that I decided to show them:
View attachment 474161

View attachment 474162

Amazing that such results can be achieved with a passive speaker of this type.

Good news doesn't stop there. As you can imagine, good engineering courtesy of that coaxial design pays dividends in the form of directivity control:
View attachment 474163
[I have grayed out the areas that don't apply as sound doesn't radiate behind the speaker].
View attachment 474164

Vertical dispersion is narrower so you want to stay close to the tweeter axis:
View attachment 474165

During distortion sweeps, I could just detect something odd at 101 dBSPL. We can see the reason why in comparing relative distortions:
View attachment 474166
That hump is a bit exaggerated due to a dip in frequency response in the same area (these are in-room measurements):
View attachment 474167

View attachment 474168

Here is the waterfall and step responses:
View attachment 474169

View attachment 474170

Conclusion
The KEF Ci3160RLM-THX is one of the most perfect in-wall speaker I have tested! This is a market that is dominated by custom system integrators which spec products without much technical input from the customer. As a result, there is less of an emphasis on engineering excellence than looks and margins. Given this, it is commendable that KEF has produced such a highly optimized design. It is enough to make this reviewer forget the rather high cost of the speaker. If you want the best for your home theater, you know where to look now.

It is my pleasure to recommend KEF Ci3160RLM-THX in-wall speaker.
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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Thanks for the great review on the speakers. One thing I was curious about was on the directivity graphs it says on one you say to stay at tweeter level and on another it says to stay within 20 degrees. However the graphs seem to show very good, even dispersion to 50-55 degrees. There shouldn’t be any need to stay at tweeter level horizontally or vertically is there? Thanks again.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the great review on the speakers. One thing I was curious about was on the directivity graphs it says on one you say to stay at tweeter level and on another it says to stay within 20 degrees. However the graphs seem to show very good, even dispersion to 50-55 degrees. There shouldn’t be any need to stay at tweeter level horizontally or vertically is there? Thanks again.

My pleasure. On your question, between 300 and 1000 Hz, the dual woofers beam vertically whereas they don't horizontally. Hence the differing recommendation of one vs the other. In addition, the beamwidth graph has 6 dB scale whereas the directivity plots have 1 dB. Hence the different recommendation based on the latter.

 

[Dj7675]

My pleasure. On your question, between 300 and 1000 Hz, the dual woofers beam vertically whereas they don't horizontally. Hence the differing recommendation of one vs the other. In addition, the beamwidth graph has 6 dB scale whereas the directivity plots have 1 dB. Hence the different recommendation based on the latter.

Is it possible to share the chart that shows response in 10 degrees increments for both horizontal and vertical? (Like the one below you sometimes show)

 

[M.C. Logan]

Very nice.

I always wondered how large the in wall speakers and integration market is, compared to regular high end stereo or home theater markets.

Not much in the UK as most of our walls, internal as well as external, are brick.

 

[amirm]

Is it possible to share the chart that shows response in 10 degrees increments for both horizontal and vertical? (Like the one below you sometimes show)

I can but it is already posted here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...thx-in-wall-speaker-review.65587/post-2392380

 

[ban25]

I have the Ci160RR-THX speakers in my ceiling serving as Atmos tops. Impressive SPL and surprising amount of bass. Glad to see these in-walls perform so well. I would imagine that the Perlisten architectural speakers are likewise good performers.