Kef Blade 2 vs Revel Salon 2s [can only demo one of them] - totally over thinking it - please help

[bishbashsplash]

Hi,

I'm in analysis paralysis; each new pair of speakers I listen to I fall in love with....

I have a room that is 14x17 with an open plan kitchen off to the side: I'm the only person who will use this space - my guess is 40% music / 30% sport/films / 30% games

Based on reviews and other forums I'd guessed I would end up with: Kef R11 & R3 Srs + Rega Elicit <-> Marantz AVR HT pass thru | C9 77inch

However when I went to listen to the R11s the bass sounded muddy to my ears so the dealer showed me the Sopra 2 "for fun"

Sopra 2s + Mc 2600 + Mc 462

Wow!! So engaging and fun - we tried some other solid state amps but it created some harshness on the highs, the Mc stuff chilled the Sopra 2s out a little and it felt very musical and for want of a better word "fun". I thought i was set on this setup with a Marantz 8802 to take care of HT duty.

Devore Gibbon X

In the spirit of best practices I tried to listen to some more speakers; these couldn't have been more different - it was as if the music had been slowed down, everything was more mellow - at first it was jarring but after 45 mins + I realized that I could listen to these speakers for hours at a time without ever tiring. They sounded mature and the setup felt more "Audiophile" like to me.

Kef Blade 2 + Mc 2600 + Mc 462

Well damn! The first 90 seconds I was a little confused why the highs weren't as engaging as the Sopra considering the extra cost but then the lows and mids kicked in and I realized I was playing at a different level - insanely coherent, lighting fast bass (I'm worried almost too much) while at the same time giving the sense that I could listen for hours and never become fatigued.

Amps

After getting home from the Blade 2 demo I cracked open my laptop and started to read, a lot!! I've spent time on reddit, avs, av, stevehoffman etc - but last night I discovered this forum and it's opened my ears - pun intended - to applying a more engineering mindset to this hobby.

The Mc while delicious sounding make me thing they are a poor use of cash compared to alternatives - so whichever speakers I choose I'm thinking either the ATI 6xxx or Benchmark AHB2

Room layout and size

with all this said, the more reading I do the more I'm convinced that even with all of the acoustic treatment I'm installing that I can't get the speakers far enough away from the walls to justify these types of speakers and I'd be better off with some cheap bookshelves.

The bit to notice in the layout I included is that the first reflection is close to the window (although I'll get a theatre grade curtain there) - but it's still in the corner and if you remember the Blade 2 has side firing woofers that make me think they are a non starter.

Curve ball - Revel Salon 2 un-heared @13k

Today I was called by my dealer telling me he can get me a pair of demo Revel Salon 2 for $13k as opposed to the Blade 2s at $25k - however he'd be shipping them in from his friend who has a Revel dealership on the east coast. Point is I couldn't send them back and I can't demo them - they'd be a full warranty though.

So.... at this point my heads in a spin

1) Is my room too small and I can't position any of these speakers properly anyway so why bother...
2) Would you choose: Kef Blade 2 @$25k or Salon 2 @$13k without hearing them

3) Would you partner these speakers with:
- Lyndorf MP50 -> ATI6002 + ATI 6003
- Lyndorf MP50 -> ATI6005
- Lyndorf MP50 -> Benchmark AHB2 x 5
*The dealer was saying he's not convinced the ATI or Benchmark is enough to drive the Salon 2s and I might want two for each front speaker

NB: this forum and the reviews are amazing! thank you.

 

[amirm]

We had a Kef Blade at work for a few months while also had the Salon 2. I own the Salon 2.

 

[Ilkless]

If you have the Lyngdorf, you have XLR outputs. This opens up options to use state-of-the-art active monitors that'd typically be much harder to integrate into a home setup, especially where a HT processor is involved. Because XLR-output processors like the MP50 are very rare.

I believe @Vintage57 recently got a top-tier setup for around the Salon2 price, and because his speakers were active, that includes power amplification built into the speakers. Genelec also released some speakers recently in that price range, that were discussed on this forum.

If passive is needed for aesthetic considerations, the Revel + Benchmark and ATI both won't disappoint. I'd lean Benchmark because it is compact and loses nothing in performance. But ATI is definitely closer to the classic notion of a robust, heavy power amp. No reason to pay that much more for a Blade.

 

[Juhazi]

Both will work in a smallish room, don't be afraid of tallness. But there is big difference in bass systems. I vote for Revels for you.

Anyway you will have problems with bass! You must get bookshelves and big sofas to break modes.

 

[maty]

Room too square and a wall with a lot of glass. I would not spend a lot of money on the audio system.

 

[tw99]

Never buy any speakers without hearing them in your room...

 

[BillG]

Never buy any speakers without hearing them in your room...

I've done just that several times now without a problem. Then again, I'm one of these people who's quite comfortable shopping by verified performance measurements, who tunes his system afterwards with DSP to taste...

 

[LDKTA]

I purchased JBL 708Ps without hearing them...

With that being said... While it is a Harman product and I may be biased, if I were being as unbiased as humanly possible: Go with the Salon2s and never look back.

 

[Soniclife]

Never buy any speakers without hearing them in your room...

I'd not buy expensive speakers without hearing them, unless at a good s/h price.

 

[Soniclife]

Hi,

I'm in analysis paralysis; each new pair of speakers I listen to I fall in love with....

I have a room that is 14x17 with an open plan kitchen off to the side: I'm the only person who will use this space - my guess is 40% music / 30% sport/films / 30% games

Based on reviews and other forums I'd guessed I would end up with: Kef R11 & R3 Srs + Rega Elicit <-> Marantz AVR HT pass thru | C9 77inch

However when I went to listen to the R11s the bass sounded muddy to my ears so the dealer showed me the Sopra 2 "for fun"

Sopra 2s + Mc 2600 + Mc 462

Wow!! So engaging and fun - we tried some other solid state amps but it created some harshness on the highs, the Mc stuff chilled the Sopra 2s out a little and it felt very musical and for want of a better word "fun". I thought i was set on this setup with a Marantz 8802 to take care of HT duty.

Devore Gibbon X

In the spirit of best practices I tried to listen to some more speakers; these couldn't have been more different - it was as if the music had been slowed down, everything was more mellow - at first it was jarring but after 45 mins + I realized that I could listen to these speakers for hours at a time without ever tiring. They sounded mature and the setup felt more "Audiophile" like to me.

Kef Blade 2 + Mc 2600 + Mc 462

Well damn! The first 90 seconds I was a little confused why the highs weren't as engaging as the Sopra considering the extra cost but then the lows and mids kicked in and I realized I was playing at a different level - insanely coherent, lighting fast bass (I'm worried almost too much) while at the same time giving the sense that I could listen for hours and never become fatigued.

Amps

After getting home from the Blade 2 demo I cracked open my laptop and started to read, a lot!! I've spent time on reddit, avs, av, stevehoffman etc - but last night I discovered this forum and it's opened my ears - pun intended - to applying a more engineering mindset to this hobby.

The Mc while delicious sounding make me thing they are a poor use of cash compared to alternatives - so whichever speakers I choose I'm thinking either the ATI 6xxx or Benchmark AHB2

Room layout and size

with all this said, the more reading I do the more I'm convinced that even with all of the acoustic treatment I'm installing that I can't get the speakers far enough away from the walls to justify these types of speakers and I'd be better off with some cheap bookshelves.

The bit to notice in the layout I included is that the first reflection is close to the window (although I'll get a theatre grade curtain there) - but it's still in the corner and if you remember the Blade 2 has side firing woofers that make me think they are a non starter.

Curve ball - Revel Salon 2 un-heared @13k

Today I was called by my dealer telling me he can get me a pair of demo Revel Salon 2 for $13k as opposed to the Blade 2s at $25k - however he'd be shipping them in from his friend who has a Revel dealership on the east coast. Point is I couldn't send them back and I can't demo them - they'd be a full warranty though.

So.... at this point my heads in a spin

1) Is my room too small and I can't position any of these speakers properly anyway so why bother...
2) Would you choose: Kef Blade 2 @$25k or Salon 2 @$13k without hearing them

3) Would you partner these speakers with:
- Lyndorf MP50 -> ATI6002 + ATI 6003
- Lyndorf MP50 -> ATI6005
- Lyndorf MP50 -> Benchmark AHB2 x 5
*The dealer was saying he's not convinced the ATI or Benchmark is enough to drive the Salon 2s and I might want two for each front speaker

NB: this forum and the reviews are amazing! thank you.

Do you have a current system?

 

[bishbashsplash]

Do you have a current system?

Not of this substance; I have some ls50w for my desktop and 15+ years ago I had a B&W + Roksan setup

 

[Thomas savage]

KEF blade is a much more interesting design imo.

 

[Absolute]

I have heard the Kef Blade 2 on numerous occasions in different rooms with various amplifications, and must say they are extraordinarily good-sounding speakers. When I directly compared them against Kii Three BXT, I found the Blade's to be smoother and more refined from the midrange and up making it sound sweeter and more relaxed at loud spl. Below 250 hz it's no contest as the BXT is just mind boggling.

I'm not so sure the Blade is better than the Reference series even though Kef would like you to think so. The Reference series isn't a point coincident source like the Blade, but the off-axis response is smoother. I haven't compared them side by side, but I've heard some highly experienced people say that they find the Reference series more fun and entertaining, whatever that means. To me they sound about the same even though the Blade is far more expensive with more fancy drivers and enclosure. Which, of course, means that I find the Blade to be too expensive for the level of performance they provide.

Disregarding anecdotal impressions, my opinion in your case is that any such expensive speaker will be wasted in a listening environment like that. For the same amount (or less) you would get far more performance with cheaper speakers, a few subwoofers, dsp and some dedicated acoustical treatment for first reflections. Whether that would be the Revels or something much cheaper isn't for me to say, but I'd start with good-measuring cheap active speakers, multi-channel dsp like a MiniDsp and a few woofers to get a feel for what level of performance you're likely to get in your living room. Here's the issues I can see;

- Close proximity to back wall will lead to bass problems and uncomfortable levels of first reflection sound power.
- Close proximity to glass wall on one side and a more open space on the other side will lead to a shift in stereo imaging towards the glass wall as well as a "hard" sound due to uneven frequency dependent reflections.
- Speaker in a corner will make the bass situation worse and will overpower the inherent clarity of quality speakers.

I can relate to your room because my listening room is very much alike, and I can present you with a lot of measurements to show the inherent problems in such an environment as well as the effect of acoustical treatments and dsp to counter it. While it's hypothetically never a bad idea to get as good speakers as one can, there's a point where better speakers becomes irrelevant to the overall sound quality in a given environment.
In this case I'd say that this point comes quite early in the price range of quality speakers and therefore you'd be better off fixing the worst of the room problems with other means instead of throwing more money at the problem.

 

[Ron Texas]

KEF blade is a much more interesting design imo.

The Blade looks like the spaceships in Arrival.

 

[Frank Dernie]

In terms of value for money I would imagine the Revel price is much more attractive if you are in the USA.
American equipment is very expensive here and the reverse tends to be true too, UK kit is very expensive in the USA.

 

[Aprude51]

A few thoughts

Speakers

• R11s have pretty much textbook measurements and you should be able to correct any bass issues with room EQ. I would guess the bass issues you were hearing were actually room issues.
• I don’t think you can go wrong with the Salons - they’re considered some of the best speakers ever created. I purchased (much cheaper) Revel speakers on the basis of their excellent measurements and design principles without ever having heard them.

Amps

• I think the multi-channel ATI amps are enough. 200 Watts per channel (ATI is rated at 300), with 86dB (Salon sensitivity) speakers @ 11ft will get you to 105dB (assuming some room gain).
• AHB2s are well respected because of their impressive engineering, but assuming you have enough power, you won’t hear any difference between well made amps. Also, 5 AHB2s just seems insane to me.

Room

• If you’re working with a fixed budget, I’d recommend saving on the speakers and amp (e.g R11 + ATI, Salon + ATI) and spending the rest on acoustic treatment. With the savings ($5-10K), you could likely hire a professional to setup and treat your space.
• You will absolutely get the most SQ impact from acoustic treatment & careful tuning of room EQ.

Links:
R11 measurements: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
SPL Calculator: https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
GIK Acoustics “Free Consult”: https://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/

 

[MZKM]

The Blades won’t do as well if the side walls are relatively close.

You will get a lot of energy ~1kHz.

In a wide room, they’ll have no issues.

 

[jtwrace]

S2 without a doubt and for some reason if you didn't like them, you can sell them for not much of a loss.

 

[richard_crl032]

Not sure if allowed but copying here from the other threads just in case and hope helps ...

Johnny comes lately ... had 1st taste of magneplanar 1.7 fully modded on frame, stand and modified crossover from nice humble homehifi which failed due to some error in clamping the frames and then a 1.7i with just the modded crossover.

Due to the quite unsightly setup in my 16' x18' x10' living room with dual vintage REL Strata 2 subwoofers, I took the plunge on a mint pair of 3 yrs old Salon 2 at usd6.3k in nice glossy black ... finally back to the "high end" sound that I needed with all other components the same. There was an offer for a pair of older Studio 2 and glad I opted for the Salon 2 instead against concern the need for bigger room than what I had.

The magneplanars were ok with its big soundstage but at rpp usd2.1k vs usd21k of the Salon 2, they are simply and reasonably outclassed by the Salon 2 in the search for hiend sound .. have no doubt on needed $ to get you there. The living room now looks great with the Salon 2 without the need for speakers to be 5-6' into the room with Salon 2's down firing port and bass control attenuation .. left it at normal with baffle 3' from from front wall with no low frequency bloom.

The Salon 2 are nicely driven by the Sander Magtech amp of 500/900/1600w@8/4/2ohm together with the Audible Illusion L3A Blackgate version ... check before getting the Salon 2 did not show up any owner with the Sanders Magtech but they work great with control and finess together with preferred tube preamp of L3A as past experience tells me from CJ premier 14, Convergent Audio Technology SL etc.

Cheers.

Richard

PS: Sanders amp is class AB but runs cool and recommended to be switched on 24/7 ... all my components similar except the AI L3A preamp that I put to standby to keep tube filaments warmed nicely for next listening session

 

[waynel]

Interested to see how this worked out. That room seems quite small for any of these systems. Where would you eat?