KEF Blade 2 vs Ascend ELX Towers as End Game

[PristineSound]

I did not realize that the coax driver on the Blades is so much higher than it is on the Reference series. Why does KEF do this? I would think that the height of this driver is a critical design element and that it would be the same on all speakers (which I believe it is across the Reference and R series).

The Blade 2 are smaller, so the coaxial will sit lower.

I didn't get to listen to the Reference, so can't comment if that height makes a difference.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The Blade 2 are smaller, so the coaxial will sit lower.

I didn't get to listen to the Reference, so can't comment if that height makes a difference.

Yes but generally still higher than in the Reference series.

FWIW, when I was considering a center channel to use with my Blade 2s, KEF was kind enough to actually setup, audition and measure using a Reference 3 as a center with the Blades. They assured me that it would fine and that, at my listening distance and ear height, there were no issues. I still went with a 3rd Blade.

 

[PristineSound]

I did not realize that the coax driver on the Blades is so much higher than it is on the Reference series. Why does KEF do this? I would think that the height of this driver is a critical design element and that it would be the same on all speakers (which I believe it is across the Reference and R series).

Yes but generally still higher than in the Reference series.

FWIW, when I was considering a center channel to use with my Blade 2s, KEF was kind enough to actually setup, audition and measure using a Reference 3 as a center with the Blades. They assured me that it would fine and that, at my listening distance and ear height, there were no issues. I still went with a 3rd Blade.

This topic of tweeter height keep coming up. And while it would be ideal to have the tweeter at exactly ear level, it absolutely isn't necessary. First, different people have different heights and different chairs have different heights. So how do you design for that?

Second, you don't need to be perfectly ear level. It's basic geometry of right angle triangles. Even with a very narrow 10° it will be fine.

 

[MarkS]

when I was considering a center channel to use with my Blade 2s, KEF was kind enough to actually setup, audition and measure using a Reference 3 as a center with the Blades. They assured me that it would fine and that, at my listening distance and ear height, there were no issues.

Kal, can you share your listening distance and ear height for this system? Thanks!

 

[traind]

This topic of tweeter height keep coming up. And while it would be ideal to have the tweeter at exactly ear level, it absolutely isn't necessary. First, different people have different heights and different chairs have different heights. So how do you design for that?

Headphones

 

[goldark]

From the Ascend forum. Almost time

 

[PristineSound]

From the Ascend forum. Almost timeView attachment 462901

Are we taking bets

 

[aarons915]

Are we taking bets

What would be very interesting is doing the comparison sighted then blind to show people how much bias they have with sighted evaluations.

 

[PristineSound]

What would be very interesting is doing the comparison sighted then blind to show people how much bias they have with sighted evaluations.

I think for many of the ASR crowd, they are so aware of the dangers of sighted bias, I wonder if it's as much of an influence on them as it is on the average job off the streets.

 

[sdrichard]

I think for many of the ASR crowd, they are so aware of the dangers of sighted bias, I wonder if it's as much of an influence on them as it is on the average job off the streets.

That could happen. Nocebo effect is real! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

(speaking nervously as a Blade 2 owner...)

 

[PristineSound]

That could happen. Nocebo effect is real! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

(speaking nervously as a Blade 2 owner...)

The ELX RAAL are fine fine speakers. But I don't think you have to be nervous as the Blade 1 and 2 are also fine fine speakers as well. I can't imagine that the ELX RAAL beats the Blade in all categories, of course many people are routing for the underdog, because everyone wants to hear an underdog story.

But we are forgetting that the Blade has a lot of propietary technologies, and everything about the Blade is custom, purpose design and built.

I owned the ELX RAAL and the Perlisten S7t and I have audition the Blade 1 Meta in a treated room. I say everyone should not jump to any conclusions just yet. Once the shootout is complete, I will share my impressions of these three speakers.

 

[sdrichard]

The ELX RAAL are fine fine speakers. But I don't think you have to be nervous as the Blade 1 and 2 are also fine fine speakers as well. I can't imagine that the ELX RAAL beats the Blade in all categories, of course many people are routing for the underdog, because everyone wants to hear an underdog story.

But we are forgetting that the Blade has a lot of propietary technologies, and everything about the Blade is custom, purpose design and built.

I owned the ELX RAAL and the Perlisten S7t and I have audition the Blade 1 Meta in a treated room. I say everyone should not jump to any conclusions just yet. Once the shootout is complete, I will share my impressions of these three speakers.

At least no one will deny that the Blade can grab your attention before a single note is played. And of course, your Perlisten will play lower, so no question it will stand out in a blind listening.

If you are still collecting more speakers, I would suggest looking at the Legacy Aeries XD. On paper, they should be in the same league as your Perlistens, but I have not seen many people talking about them. I am very curious how the open baffle design performs.

 

[PristineSound]

If you are still collecting more speakers,

I am done. To be able to own the Ascend ELX RAAL and Perlisten S7t, I got to be one of the most fortunate audiophile to walk this planet.

. . .Unless, a deal on the S7t LE or BE comes along that I can't refuse.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

(speaking nervously as a Blade 2 owner...)

Only if you have blue ones.

 

[Looneybomber]

I can't imagine that the ELX RAAL beats the Blade in all categories, of course many people are routing for the underdog, because everyone wants to hear an underdog story.

The crux of comparing two speakers of very different prices is the cheap one is never the “loser”. Manufacturer’s of the cheaper speaker know this too.

If the cheap one gets severely bested (not very likely) by one more expensive, well that’s to be expected, it’s X times cheaper. Great excuse. It comes out smelling like a rose.

If the cheaper one is close (which is more likely) to being as good, then it’s a win because of the performance per dollar.

This is why it’s so common for manufacturers to welcome competition from much more expensive speakers - there’s no risk of looking bad. But, they rarely want competition from cheaper speakers since it’s a no win scenario.

 

[PristineSound]

The crux of comparing two speakers of very different prices is the cheap one is never the “loser”. Manufacturer’s of the cheaper speaker know this too.

If the cheap one gets severely bested (not very likely) by one more expensive, well that’s to be expected, it’s X times cheaper. Great excuse. It comes out smelling like a rose.

If the cheaper one is close (which is more likely) to being as good, then it’s a win because of the performance per dollar.

This is why it’s so common for manufacturers to welcome competition from much more expensive speakers - there’s no risk of looking bad. But, they rarely want competition from cheaper speakers since it’s a no win scenario.

100%

How often you watch a sports match and are routing for the underdog? If the underdog wins, then it's fairytale story (everyone is looking for the giant killer) and if the underdog loses but fought their heart out, they only win more fans and their stock goes up. Win-win here for sure.

 

[sdrichard]

Only if you have blue ones.

Haha, but two factors work in my advantage. 1) I bought mine as a demo pair with full warranty and a very significant discount, 2) I can always say I couldn't go for the Ascend because they didn't offer a blue pair.

 

[mj30250]

Dave shared some opinions on his initial Blade 2 / ELX Ribbon Tower listening on Ascend's forums. The in-room response comparison is interesting (Blade 2: blue, EXL Ribbon Tower: red). I'm looking forward to reading the blind listening results as customers visit.

Ascend forum post.

Ok - so here we go. After several late nights I have the Blade 2's setup in the best possible location in our room. At first, I had them positioned where we typically place our towers, about 1 foot off the front wall but these speakers have so much bass that they just sounded horrible to me - way too much bass reinforcement, muddying the midrange. This prompted me to break out one of our laptop's, a mic and start taking measurements.

This was not fun, as the Blade 2's are heavy and awkward to move around, especially with the 4 woofers, 2 on each side of the cabinet, forcing you to be incredibly careful and there is really nothing to grip. That stated, using measurements - I found the best location for them which turned out to be about 40 inches off the front wall, with a separation distance creating an almost perfect equilateral triangle with the main listening position.

As mentioned, I generally prefer our ELX towers to be about 1 foot off the front wall to take advantage of some bass reinforcement so in some regards, not the ideal location for our product, but this isn't about that.

Using a laser and a tape measure, both pairs of speakers are properly positioned for direct A/B comparisons.
placement.jpg




Below are measurements of the Blade2 vs ELX Ribbon Tower: Blade 2 in Blue, ELX in Red. (very slight amplitude adjustment to overlay the plots)
measurements1.jpg


Both measurements are exceptional, especially from 1kHz and up. For the Kef, the big dip at 300Hz puzzled me so I moved the speaker into the center of the room, thus trying to reduce room interaction:
mesurement2.jpg



Still there... I tried several different locations and still the same. I then did some calculations and determined that this is unavoidable floor bounce and due to having the midrange and woofers all at the nearly the same height off the floor. (quite high) I understand why Kef did this (to create a true point source) but as with all things audio, optimize one aspect, sacrifice something else.

How do the Kef's sound to me? It is really not my place to discuss this but I will make a few quick observations:

1. Kef did a remarkable job in eliminating any cabinet resonance, best I have ever heard in this regard, well done!!
2. The bass response on the Kef's, once properly setup, is fantastic. Definitely deeper than the ELX, similar punchiness, maybe a bit cleaner (likely due to the complete lack of cabinet resonance)
3. ELX present vocals slightly more forward. Some listeners will prefer this, some may not.
4. I prefer the highs of the RAAL 70-20xram for much of what I listen to. Not a fault of Kef, just very different technology.
5. Blade 2's do take time and effort to properly place but I would assume anyone spending this much on a pair of speakers would also be willing to put the work in, at least I hope so.

I now have the speakers setup with an 80Hz crossover and the Rythmik F12 in play, as well as level matched to within 1/10th of a dB. This removes the bass advantage of the Kef's and it's now a level playing field.

--and--

After several extended and blindfolded listening sessions tonight, depending on the song - I sometimes got confused which speaker was playing. I didn't expect this but as you can see from the measurements, these speakers are so close. An employee of mine who is musically gifted, also got very confused as to which speaker was often playing.

Please do not draw any quick assumptions from this. I am not a fan of A/B testing, I much prefer long, drawn out and deep listening sessions where I get lost in the music. That never happens with A/B testing. In addition, with speakers of this quality and with ABAB positioning, center imaging gets slightly thrown off after each speaker change (I find this annoying)

We have several consumers visiting us tomorrow, the first group of hopefully many who will come listen. I will give them the option of being blind or sighted (or doing both options). I do not want to make this formal as I much prefer friendly and informal. I will, however, encourage them to post their comments.

I feel it is important to mention this is not a competition. Nobody who is considering Blades is going to instead purchase our ELX, and vice versa. This is more about comparing two very different speaker designs that have very similar in-room measurements once the deep bass is compensated for....

One last item, and a testament to the current state of the science.

Here is the anechoic estimated in-room response of the Kef Blade and our ELX Ribbon Tower:
newplot (3).png


Remarkable how representative the EIR is to real world results!

 

[PristineSound]

Dave shared some opinions on his initial Blade 2 / ELX Ribbon Tower listening on Ascend's forums. The in-room response comparison is interesting (Blade 2: blue, EXL Ribbon Tower: red). I'm looking forward to reading the blind listening results as customers visit.

Ascend forum post.

View attachment 465656

"I feel it is important to mention this is not a competition. Nobody who is considering Blades is going to instead purchase our ELX, and vice versa. This is more about comparing two very different speaker designs that have very similar in-room measurements once the deep bass is compensated for...."

Right on.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Dave shared some opinions on his initial Blade 2 / ELX Ribbon Tower listening on Ascend's forums. The in-room response comparison is interesting (Blade 2: blue, EXL Ribbon Tower: red). I'm looking forward to reading the blind listening results as customers visit.

Ascend forum post.

View attachment 465656

Cannot access the 2 other graphs referenced. Can you post or link them?