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KEF Blade 2 vs Ascend ELX Towers as End Game

Floyd Toole chimed in to a similar discussion on AVS forum years ago and mentioned a blind study he conducted decades ago with a ribbon and dome with people making the same claims about ribbons, no differences were noted that couldn't be explained by the frequency response. Also that a heavier moving mass requires a heavier motor, it's just F=Ma where a higher mass requires a higher force to achieve the same acceleration. Here are a few of his quotes on the subject:


The time domain differences I see are correlated with frequency response irregularities, as is expected. Transducers are minimum-phase devices and the time domain performance can be calculated from the amplitude vs. frequency response. Waterfalls and the like add no new information, just different perspectives on the same information. Note that prolonged ringing in waterfalls always starts at a peak in the frequency response. Note also that the waterfall does not start declining at t=0. It should if properly windowed.

Further, there is persuasive evidence that humans do not hear the ringing. Our perceptions are dominated by spectral cues.
Toole, F. E. and Olive, S.E. (1988). “The modification of timbre by resonances: perception and measurement”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 36, pp. 122-142.

This is not saying that the speaker at issue is inferior, just that the portrayal of performance is not balanced. There are much better dome tweeters.

and another later response:

The "quick decay" you speak of is totally predictable from amplitude vs. frequency responses because transducers are minimum-phase devices. Impulse response plots are impressive, but the reality is that humans do not respond to phase shift so these time-domain plots are misleading. We humans do not hear waveforms. I am an engineer and had to learn this myself, fortunately at an early stage.

It is interesting that one of the first loudspeakers I tested in the anechoic chamber at the NRCC in 1967 (52 years ago!!!!) was a ribbon tweeter, the Kelly Ribbon from the UK. I just looked at the measurements in my personal archive. At the time it was promoted for the same reasons that ribbons and electrostatic loudspeakers are today: "massless" diaphragms, "Instant" transient response, etc. etc. It was a learning experience for me, and only definitively provable in double-blind listening tests. Of course, nothing back then was as good as things are now, but the implied superiority simply was not heard. As time passed and measurements and knowledge improved, nothing has changed. There are good loudspeakers and not-so-good loudspeakers, and the method of moving the air has not revealed itself as being the dominant factor. If any one method was obviously superior, it would dominate the products we can buy.

As far as the "massless" consideration is concerned, I have a Tesla S P90D in my garage that accelerates from 0-60 mph in 3.2 s. It is a heavy four door, potentially 7-passenger, sedan that is much quicker than most two seat sports cars - and I have owned a few. The secret is in the motor, and that is also the relevant factor in loudspeaker transducers. Ribbons and electrostatic speakers typically have relatively weak motors compared to what can be put behind a cone or dome. In the end, frequency response is king.
Very insightful. I wonder why Revel used Be for their tweeters in their Salon and PerformaBe line.

The Salon was in development when Toole was still the SVP of acoustic engineering at Harman.

Is it because that is just par for the course if you are developing high end speakers and charging a premium? Or was it for the sake of achieving technical performance?
 
As stated in the paper, the recording of the various tweeters were done in an anechoic chamber to eliminate reflection and directivity.
Interesting. That certainly does isolate the driver material, which I suppose was the goal. I don't know why you'd expect there'd be any difference between the sound heard via a properly done binaural recording and actually being in front of the speaker if the reflections were eliminated. The only thing there to hear is the on-axis frequency response.
 
Interesting. That certainly does isolate the driver material, which I suppose was the goal. I don't know why you'd expect there'd be any difference between the sound heard via a properly done binaural recording and actually being in front of the speaker if the reflections were eliminated. The only thing there to hear is the on-axis frequency response.
To clarify, it's a playback on headphones of the recordings.

Off the top of my head, i can think of multiple variables being added: The microphone, the headphone (a big part of coloration added), the inability to here sound field.

And if a recording of the speakers is as good as listening to the speakers itself, I should go into business and buy a pair of KEF Blade, record tracks and sell them for $5/ea. Then everyone can enjoy KEF Blade at $5/track, instead of dropping $28k.
 
And if a recording of the speakers is as good as listening to the speakers itself, I should go into business and buy a pair of KEF Blade, record tracks and sell them for $5/ea. Then everyone can enjoy KEF Blade at $5/track, instead of dropping $28k.
We already know that you can get IEMs with a frequency response as good or better than any speaker for dirt cheap. Of course it's not the same as listening to speakers, but that's due to reflections which were eliminated from the testing, the experience of bass which is irrelevant for a tweeter, and soundstage/imaging which would seem to be again irrelevant when comparing tweeter material/construction.

The whole "magic" of ribbons is supposed to be due to the ribbon being so "light", but the issue with that reasoning is addressed in the previously posted Toole quote. Sure, a dome tweeter might be heavier but there are more powerful motors driving them. A larger mass can be accelerated and decelerated just as fast as a smaller one as long as the motor is powerful enough. And of course ultimately we're only concerned with it accelerating/decelerating fast enough to reproduce the shortest wavelength we are interested in without distortion, usually 20kHz. If it can do that, what need is there for it to be any faster? Seems like the same fallacious reasoning behind the "fast bass" myth.
 
We already know that you can get IEMs with a frequency response as good or better than any speaker for dirt cheap. Of course it's not the same as listening to speakers, but that's due to reflections which were eliminated from the testing, the experience of bass which is irrelevant for a tweeter, and soundstage/imaging which would seem to be again irrelevant when comparing tweeter material/construction.
Not sure if we have agreement on opinion of the method used in this experiment. Anyway, getting a response of, it works, trust me bro, ain't convincing. The only thing dumber than that is getting mad when someone say, no I don't want to trust you.

The whole "magic" of ribbons is supposed to be due to the ribbon being so "light", but the issue with that reasoning is addressed in the previously posted Toole quote. Sure, a dome tweeter might be heavier but there are more powerful motors driving them. A larger mass can be accelerated and decelerated just as fast as a smaller one as long as the motor is powerful enough. And of course ultimately we're only concerned with it accelerating/decelerating fast enough to reproduce the shortest wavelength we are interested in without distortion, usually 20kHz. If it can do that, what need is there for it to be any faster? Seems like the same fallacious reasoning behind the "fast bass" myth.
If you read my previous posts, I personally can't say the measurable physical behavior difference can translate to audible difference. And if there is evidence that it doesn't, fine by me.

But this paper in itself, isn't convincing. If Toole has other experiments that is based on direct, live listening of these various tweeters, as alluded to in the previous post, I am happy to accept it.

Lastly, I know I can't tell the difference between a 120dB SINAD DAC vs. 110dB SINAD DAC, but I wouldn't mind having the 120dB SINAD DAC, and I do own 3 of them.
 
The Ascend ELX Tower feels more similar to the Reference Meta than to the Blade Meta.
I like KEF, and I think I would probably like the ELX Tower as well.
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A third speaker exists for end-game at this price:

Buchardt A700

Maybe not fair being actively powered, tuned, and even cardoid. But that's a lot of speaker for the money.

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A third speaker exists for end-game at this price:
Buchardt A700
Maybe not fair being actively powered, tuned, and even cardoid. But that's a lot of speaker for the money.
Amir's test of the Buchardt S400 stuck in my mind.
As in some other reviews, it measured quite well, but......
I physically examined the speaker and boy does this cabinet breath(e). It is constantly being excited by whatever it plays. On other speakers, only a few frequencies excited them but here, the cabinet is more like how a music instrument acts, being part of the show. Researching online, it seems the cabinet has no bracing and is only using half inch MDF?
 
A third speaker exists for end-game at this price:
Ha. There are many more 'end game' speakers. This thread was specifically started by a newcomer to audio that really loved ascend and wanted some attention.
 
Ha. There are many more 'end game' speakers. This thread was specifically started by a newcomer to audio that really loved ascend and wanted some attention.
That's pretty unfair. The OP had decided to buy Ascend ELXs and then came across used Blade 2s at a good price and was looking for info before making a final purchase decision. Kinda like some guy who had Philharmonics and wondered if he should replace them with Genelecs ... ;)
 
That's pretty unfair. The OP had decided to buy Ascend ELXs and then came across used Blade 2s at a good price and was looking for info before making a final purchase decision. Kinda like some guy who had Philharmonics and wondered if he should replace them with Genelecs ... ;)

Eh, I see it differently but ok.
 
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I was comparing the C8C the other day with the A700, and the C8C was an upgrade in every measurable metric except vertical directivity where it depends on how you evaluate it.
This would be the first time I've heard of it. It indeed looks endgame worthy.

Do you have the A700? How were you comparing them?
 
Amir's test of the Buchardt S400 stuck in my mind.
As in some other reviews, it measured quite well, but......
Yes, I remember that review. That resonance couldn't be heard by Erin even though it showed up in the measurement. Also remember that there is a MKII which increased the size of the cabinet, added bracing, changed the driver and reworked the crossover. I owned both so I understand the differences quite well. :)
 
This would be the first time I've heard of it. It indeed looks endgame worthy.

Do you have the A700? How were you comparing them?
We have extensive Klippel measurements for both. They are begging to be compared to be honest, same price point, possible cardioid tuning, same size.
 
Which measurements were used? Did you see the measurement I just posted?
You posted Buchard's measurement, right? I've seen it before.

Otherwise I checked Erin's measurements for the A700 since it's complete and the speaker structure hasn't change that much between A700 and A700 LE, also looked at the A700 LE measurements from Buchardt themselves, and also cross checked Erin's measurements of the small bookshelves with their new tweeter and waveguide since this is present in the 700 LE.
 
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