Kef Blade 1 meta disappointed

[Sokel]

Would you like to save me a few minutes by pointing me to the correct section (as I cannot find it)? Thank you in advance.

These look like speakers to me (Genelec subs if not mistaken, and it makes sence in a Lund's experiment) :

 

[sigbergaudio]

Isn't that what experiments like on that paper do? Prove things?
Unless you imply that Lund is incapable of such.

I have met Thomas and we had interesting conversations (also on this topic), I don't have anything bad to say about him. But this single experiment / study is not conclusive, and certainly not on the subject of driver placement in speakers.

These look like speakers to me:

View attachment 431447

Yes, but they only changed the position of the speakers in relation to the listener. They did not rotate the speakers. That is what we are discussing, yes? If for instance side mounted woofers is a problematic implementation or not.

 

[Sokel]

I have met Thomas and we had interesting conversations (also on this topic), I don't have anything bad to say about him. But this single experiment / study is not conclusive, and certainly not on the subject of driver placement in speakers.


Yes, but they only changed the position of the speakers in relation to the listener. They did not rotate the speakers. That is what we are discussing, yes? If for instance side mounted woofers is a problematic implementation or not.

What rotating?
All we talked about is localizing lows, no matter how the drivers are placed.

 

[sigbergaudio]

What rotating?
All we talked about is localizing lows, no matter how the drivers are placed.

Ok, then it was unclear what you were referring to in your original post. The post you quoted started with this sentence: "Their years of research has led them to mount the bass drivers on the sides of the enclosure."

 

[Sokel]

Ok, then it was unclear what you were referring to in your original post. The post you quoted started with this sentence: "Their years of research has led them to mount the bass drivers on the sides of the enclosure."

Then read #153 post, I made it perfectly clear.

 

[sigbergaudio]

You also claimed the paper contained " tests concerning the direction of drivers on speakers or subwoofers?" - which was what I was asking about. But I guess we misunderstood each other.

 

[Sokel]

You also claimed the paper contained " tests concerning the direction of drivers on speakers or subwoofers?" - which was what I was asking about. But I guess we misunderstood each other.

I never claim such, my post is solely about what ears can localize.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I never claim such, my post is solely about what ears can localize.

Well, that was what I was asking for. But neither of us read the other posts well enough it seems. All good.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Then read #153 post, I made it perfectly clear.

Yes, so to move on to that topic (disregarding the driver orientation), I find it is still in question what practical / real life application this has in actual listening rooms. A test where you sit outdoors with one subwoofer pointing directly at your ears on each side is a pretty extreme situation. It does not prove that this has practical merit in a listening room, which would be more interesting to most than what is theoretically possible given an ideal situation.

 

[Sokel]

Yes, so to move on to that topic (disregarding the driver orientation), I find it is still in question what practical / real life application this has in actual listening rooms. A test where you sit outdoors with one subwoofer pointing directly at your ears on each side is a pretty extreme situation. It does not prove that this has practical merit in a listening room, which would be more interesting to most than what is theoretically possible given an ideal situation.

We talked about all that in the thread I posted, it's entirely possible in rooms too as it seems.
We can take it back to that thread, I think we bored people to death here as I suspect the interest is about the Blade.

 

[terryforsythe]

It doesn't matter what manufacturers and designers have to say about placement- it all comes down to "audiophiles" mistaken ideas that a speaker needs to be out in the room, away from the walls in order to "breathe"...

It depends on the speaker. A speaker with a shelved bass response (e.g., the KEF R3), sans EQ, is going to sound anemic pulled out into the room. On the other hand, a speaker designed for a flat bass response anechoically is going to sound boomy if placed against the wall (some people might like that, though).

Another issue is the distance of the speakers from the listener. In my family room I have experimented with my speakers against the wall, about 4.2m from my listening position, and pulled closer to me, about 3m, with room correction applied for the respective positions. I hear more precise imaging and a wider sound stage when the speakers are pulled into the room closer to my listening position.

 

[terryforsythe]

I'm personally more interest at the Voice Coil size before looking anything else, it's a solid hint for mid-bass performance.
A 3" one is a good start.

My KEF LS60s, in my office, each have four 135mm woofers. At the SPLs to which I listen 2m from the speakers, their mid-bass performance is really, really good. I don't know what is the size of their voice coils, but looking at KEF's white paper the voice coils certainly appear to be smaller than 3".

Product Support

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

 

[Mart68]

It depends on the speaker. A speaker with a shelved bass response (e.g., the KEF R3), sans EQ, is going to sound anemic pulled out into the room. On the other hand, a speaker designed for a flat bass response anechoically is going to sound boomy if placed against the wall (some people might like that, though).

Another issue is the distance of the speakers from the listener. In my family room I have experimented with my speakers against the wall, about 4.2m from my listening position, and pulled closer to me, about 3m, with room correction applied for the respective positions. I hear more precise imaging and a wider sound stage when the speakers are pulled into the room closer to my listening position.

I'd suggest this is generally true. Given many people place a very high priority on soundstage they are likely prepared to sacrifice 'mid bass slam' for the better staging you get from having speakers well clear of any boundary.

 

[Sokel]

It depends on the speaker. A speaker with a shelved bass response (e.g., the KEF R3), sans EQ, is going to sound anemic pulled out into the room. On the other hand, a speaker designed for a flat bass response anechoically is going to sound boomy if placed against the wall (some people might like that, though).

Another issue is the distance of the speakers from the listener. In my family room I have experimented with my speakers against the wall, about 4.2m from my listening position, and pulled closer to me, about 3m, with room correction applied for the respective positions. I hear more precise imaging and a wider sound stage when the speakers are pulled into the room closer to my listening position.

It also depends of the speakers themselves if Genelec's guide measures from the front, big-ish ones can be more than 60 cm in depth while bigger ones way more.
So....

 

[terryforsythe]

I'd suggest this is generally true. Given many people place a very high priority on soundstage they are likely prepared to sacrifice 'mid bass slam' for the better staging you get from having speakers well clear of any boundary.

My family room speakers each have a 6.5" woofer. With DSP applied for the respective positions, I can't say I have noticed much of a difference in the "mid bass slam" between the two positions.

However, the inductors of the original passive crossovers had a total of 1.6 ohms of resistance in series with each 4.15 ohm woofer. They certainly lacked mid bass impact. I have since removed the passive crossovers, and that helped quite a bit. Still, they don't have the mid bass impact of my LS60s, but I sit closer to those and the room is quite a bit smaller, not to mention the difference in the effective surface area of the woofers.

 

[GXAlan]

At my previous house (untreated room) no coax work for me, no matter the placement.

Surprise - surprise, as I later found out during the treatment of this room what's crucial about it is the ceiling and floor.
And it makes sense, coaxials spread the same energy at those, they must be tamed somehow.

This can be one reason why something that measures well doesn’t sound great. In many homes, the audio room is a multipurpose room that prevents you from treating the ceiling or making drastic changes to the floor. If someone’s home benefits from a restricted vertical dispersion, then no matter how good the KEF measures, anechoically, you may prefer the sound of something with a more restricted vertical dispersion.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-case-for-lcr-speakers-with-the-old-thx-uitra-specs….3231214/

 

[Hear Here]

It's been a little while since I read this, but to my memory there were no tests concerning the direction of drivers on speakers or subwoofers?

True, as otherwise all subs would have their drivers facing the "ideal" direction. Some face downwards, some backwards, some in 2 directions, so in practice (all that really matters), there is no "best". Some think their sub should be placed between their speakers, or beside them if they have 2, while other place them in corners often way distant from the main speakers. There is no right or wrong method, whatever the writer of a theoretical paper may think. Horses for courses perhaps?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Another issue is the distance of the speakers from the listener. In my family room I have experimented with my speakers against the wall, about 4.2m from my listening position, and pulled closer to me, about 3m, with room correction applied for the respective positions. I hear more precise imaging and a wider sound stage when the speakers are pulled into the room closer to my listening position.

This is a somewhat important point.

I think many pull the speakers out from the wall, and think the difference in soundstage is due to the change in distance between speakers and wall.
In reality the difference is due to the change in distance between speakers and the listener.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

i didn't consider any commercial available speakers, they can really go loud, i mean the average volume for me is 80db with maybe 100db peaks in fact when i use them in multichannel

With what center channel, if any?

 

[Ciobi69]

With what center channel, if any?

sadly no one because i have a tv, but the phantom image is the best i got