Kef Blade 1 meta disappointed

[Theta]

Do you have any measurements to demonstrate this? Erin's multitone distortion measurements look very good to me (source: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_blade2_meta/ )

Erin's measurements are correct as you say, but not good enough for me.

 

[thewas]

Erin's measurements are correct as you say, but not good enough for me.

Than show some which are significantly better but I have a feeling nothing will come.

 

[EdW]

You need at least another $10K for cables, DAC, Amp
That's almost $40K
For that amount I'd just buy some big active monitors + subs that will wipe the floor with the Blades.

No you don’t! Just buy top of the range Purifi 9040 based amps from March Audio or Buckeye ($1250/channel with top of the range power supply). There aren’t any better amps.
Top of the range DACs, as any reader of ASR knows, cost less than $1000.
$200 for cabling from Blue Jeans.
I bought ex demo blade 2 metas with full warranty and in perfect condition in the UK at substantial discount to the UK price (£22k) and I’ve even seen offers of £16k recently . .

 

[Pearljam5000]

No you don’t! Just buy top of the range Purifi 9040 based amps from March Audio or Buckeye ($1250/channel with top of the range power supply). There aren’t any better amps.
Top of the range DACs, as any reader of ASR knows, cost less than $1000.
$200 for cabling from Blue Jeans.
I bought ex demo blade 2 metas with full warranty and in perfect condition in the UK at substantial discount to the UK price (£22k) and I’ve even seen offers of £16k recently . .

I still prefer actives

 

[thewas]

I still prefer actives

That is your personal preference and such doesn't make sense to discuss as they are individual and subjective.

 

[Mart68]

Not that I agree with Theta or the tone of Theta's posts, but "punter", at least where I live, is not derogatory in any way.
It just means "the average bloke, man-in-the-street, person not-otherwise-specified"

Correct. It's British slang originating from bookmakers - to take a 'punt' means to take a chance or a gamble.

In wider use it can refer to anyone who is a customer or potential customer for anything. It isn't derogatory.

Regards the KEF Blade I had a demo a few years ago, it was disappointing. Happily I had already seen the measurements so could ascribe to poor set up/room acoustic and not the actual speaker. Demo was by KEF, not a dealer.

Their demos always disappoint me regardless of the speaker (LS60 demo was also not great). Not sure if this is because they can't be bothered to do it right, or don't know what they are doing. In the case of the LS60 it may be how they had it set up was to their taste and not to mine however my two colleagues also had the same conclusion when we compared notes afterwards.

Can understand someone jumping to the wrong conclusions especially if not up to speed on the technical side.

 

[LSPhil]

Regards the KEF Blade I had a demo a few years ago, it was disappointing. Happily I had already seen the measurements so could ascribe to poor set up/room acoustic and not the actual speaker. Demo was by KEF, not a dealer.

Good speakers sound good everywhere, though their performance can vary depending on the room and setup. However, they will always sound better or worse compared to properly designed speakers, such as those from Canton. Side-firing woofers with lightly filtered electrical filters are an acoustic disaster in enclosed spaces, even if they measure well in an anechoic chamber. These KEFs are visually stunning, but technically, they are not even adequate. Do you really think a 4.5" speaker is good enough as a midrange?

 

[terryforsythe]

Side-firing woofers with lightly filtered electrical filters are an acoustic disaster in enclosed spaces

I respectfully disagree.

The KEF LS60 speakers have side-firing woofers. They sound fantastic in my office. Dimensions are 3.55m x 4.16m x 4.24m. I use PEQs for room correction (CamillaDSP).

But, that is my subjective opinion. Here is a review both with objective data and a subjective opinion supported by the data:

 

[LSPhil]

The4.5" driver features a lightweight membrane, delivering theimpression of a pure and detailed sound, often found in designs likea 10" woofer paired with a 2" midrange. However, the realissue arises when you start making comparisons. I’ve tested a 4.5"driver with configurations usingthe ScanSpeak15M, AudaxHM170Z,and VisatonB100.In my experience, the surface of the membrane simply can not be replaced by anything.
Whenusing low-order filters, it’s fascinating to isolate and listen tohow these drivers perform when the rest of the frequency range issubtracted. You might be surprised to find that they can reproducealmost the entire frequency band. Currently, I’m experimentingwith 100dB/octave filters,which go beyond even what Dr. Gauder has achieved in his highlyexpensive GauderBerlina speakers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Absolutely, Kef have gone all in on the coaxial, Meta and Blade included. They maybe perfect in some situations, but as a whole, vastly over rated. There in no real mid-range driver. Limited SPL before IM distortion appears. The best coax I have auditioned to date is the Tad top of the line.

What do you mean no real midrange driver? That surely depends on the design of both the coax and the speaker?

 

[kharan]

It's not a real midrange driver unless it can sustain 1 kHz at 115 dB at 3 m for 100h.

- Someone, somewhere

 

[thewas]

Do you really think a 4.5" speaker is good enough as a midrange?

It is funny that often the 3" domes are worshiped as the best midrange drivers and on the other hand suddenly a 4.5" is not enough.
The truth like almost always is not black or white, in this case it depends on the highpass frequency, slope and desired SPL, for home audio application and a reasonable crossover frequency a good 3-4" driver can be fully adequate.

I’ve tested a 4.5"driver with configurations usingthe ScanSpeak15M, AudaxHM170Z,and VisatonB100.From my experience, the membrane surface area simply cannot competewith larger drivers—there’s no comparison.

I think you mainly hear the difference in directivities.

 

[Mart68]

Good speakers sound good everywhere, though their performance can vary depending on the room and setup. However, they will always sound better or worse compared to properly designed speakers, such as those from Canton. Side-firing woofers with lightly filtered electrical filters are an acoustic disaster in enclosed spaces, even if they measure well in an anechoic chamber. These KEFs are visually stunning, but technically, they are not even adequate. Do you really think a 4.5" speaker is good enough as a midrange?''

My own choice in loudspeakers is quite different from the design philosophy behind the Blades (I favour an 8'' for the mid, since you ask ) but I would expect Blades to be extremely competent nevertheless.

The Canton models I've heard have always impressed.

 

[kharan]

Jokes aside, the 4" and the 5" in the LS60 and the Blades are quite different.

The LS60 is electronically SPL limited so that the drivers are never overly worked and it doesn't play that loud, enough for a lot of living spaces but larger rooms will benefit from a bigger speaker.

The Blades have a larger medium and it is placed in a larger waveguide too. They offer significantly more SPL capability. I don't know what the limits are but Erin's measures show astonishingly low distortion at 96 dB and no compression at 102 dB, I don't think SPL will be an issue for all but the largest rooms.

 

[quattro98]

You need at least another $10K for cables, DAC, Amp
That's almost $40K
For that amount I'd just buy some big active monitors + subs that will wipe the floor with the Blades.

You can easily get cables/DAC/Amp for far less. They won't be audiophile approved, but will provide outstanding performance both for those who listen with their ears and their measuring equipment. It might fall short for those who listen with their eyes. Using ASR effectively can help people get better sound and save money.

cables: standard 12 gauge wire, done (if you want to get fancy, go with Canare 4S11 and buy a nice crimping tool)
amp: any number of Hypex/Purifi amps are available with excellent performance
DAC: the price/performance of DACs is continuously improving

 

[Frank Dernie]

Do you really think a 4.5" speaker is good enough as a midrange?

Yes

 

[terryforsythe]

It's not a real midrange driver unless it can sustain 1 kHz at 115 dB at 3 m for 100h.

If you are looking for a good way to irrevocably damage your hearing.

In my experience, the surface of the membrane simply can not be replaced by anything.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Surface area? It really comes down to the frequency range over which the driver is going to be used and the maximum SPL needed.

I hardly ever play SPL higher than the low 80's, with some uncompressed music maxing out around 98dB with instantaneous peaks. A properly designed 4" midrange operating above 300Hz or 400Hz should have no problem doing that.

The LS60 crosses the midrange over at 340Hz. At 86dB the THD is below -42dB (0.8%). Even at 96dB the THD of the midrange is close to -36dB (1.6%) or lower.

On the other hand, my Elac UBR62 speakers are designed with the 4" midrange of the concentric driver being pushed down to 220Hz or so. It has relatively high THD below 400Hz. I removed the passive crossovers and now actively cross them over at 400Hz, which dropped the THD down quite a bit. They sound much better now, at least to me.

Generally speaking, the larger the midrange, the lower you need to crossover the tweeter if you want to maintain good dispersion characteristics - they start to beam. You can use a paper cone material, which tends to flex allowing the effective diameter to decrease as the frequency increases, which is why I think the MoFi Sourcepoint speakers use paper drivers - large effective diameter for the bass frequencies and smaller effective diameter in the upper midrange. But, there always is a tradeoff, in that case the tradeoff being higher THD and MD than, for example, the higher end KEF speakers.

 

[quattro98]

Erin's measurements are correct as you say, but not good enough for me.

To this extent that we make believe that the discussion in this thread is about reality and not personal biases and opinions, one can also look at the multi-tone distortion for the TAD coaxial and find a similar level as the Blade 2 Meta throughout the midrange, even at the earsplitting 8.95 V. You can also see the slightly lower distortion of the larger tweeter with correspondingly narrower high frequency dispersion (see horizontal contour plots on EAC).

TAD COMPACT REFERENCE ONE (TAD-CR1TX) Speaker Review

TAD COMPACT REFERENCE ONE (TAD-CR1TX) Speaker

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Pearljam5000]

Which coaxial driver is the best in the world
KEF, Genelec or TAD?

 

[terryforsythe]

The LS60 is electronically SPL limited so that the drivers are never overly worked and it doesn't play that loud, enough for a lot of living spaces but larger rooms will benefit from a bigger speaker.

They play more than loud enough for me in my office which, as noted, is 3.55m x 4.16m x 4.24m.

Most of the limiting is below 100Hz. A subwoofer would help for someone who wants to play them louder, or has them in a larger room. Still, there probably are better speakers for that application.