KEF and their slopping response, neutral ?!

[goat76]

Many audiophiles with $$$$$$ systems have a lower understanding of the topic than some people with a low budget system which is though chosen and setup with high knowledge (and often also lower sound quality). Also you just have a pair of passive ATC models of their entry series, which is absolutely fine but could give you a hint before your write such posts.

I have not noticed any higher knowledge from YSC's side, and it's not clear from your reply if you like to put me in the $$$$$$ category or in the budget entry series category.

 

[thewas]

I have not noticed any higher knowledge from YSC's side, and it's not clear from your reply if you like to put me in the $$$$$$ category or in the budget entry series category.

In neither, just that we shouldn't judge other people on the price of their systems, even more as there are also many with much more expensive stuff than your or my systems.

 

[goat76]

In neither, just that we shouldn't judge other people on the price of their systems, even more as there are also many with much more expensive stuff than your or my systems.

I have not judged anyone on the price of their system.

 

[thewas]

I have not judged anyone on the price of their system.

Your comment "You have a lot of opinions for a guy with his first miniature computer speaker setup" leads me to such an interpretation, but maybe its just the language barrier.

 

[goat76]

Your comment "You have a lot of opinions for a guy with his first miniature computer speaker setup" leads me to such an interpretation, but maybe its just the language barrier.

I have no idea what he paid for his first miniature system.

 

[thewas]

I have no idea what he paid for his first miniature system.

In the end it is the same condescending if someone judges someone on the price, size etc.

 

[YSC]

... because they care about more relevant things? Things where they get the money from to spend on one or another thingy. After purchasing a Reference 7 for its reputation next is a yacht with a subterrain garage for the Lear jet (including suplementary heli and trailing oil tanker) to visit the privately conquored island in the sothern Pacific. The 'Blade' would too much remind people of on-deck work, you know?

The orignal question is why KEF builds bad speakers, bad despite the excellent measurements which put everybodies darling to shame. With some nasty trick they come around with not using beryllium, the white paper says. How dare?! That's exactly how you define not misusing resource!

So, how could that vicious non-quality be hidden with tilting down the hights? Now that stereoplay as an internationally respected publication on the topic of true-to-life replication is the witness for an - obviously, reportedly, failed attempt to cover up the flaw(s), what is the flaw, actually?

Not revealed by measurements, desperately tried to be closed in by manipulations, but brought to light by a passing-by experience. The preferrence score again to be praised.

The problem of the original question was nothing with at least in room measurement, photo of setup or even music auditioned, and that tilt the op mentioned, even present should not be related to what he claimed to heard. So it’s a one time single person claim where nobody could even try to reproduce the problem and see if evil KEF just hide their “bad” speakers. The preference score is just.. a generalisation of how ppl likely prefer one over another, which judging by KEF sales and size don’t seem to be far off, but this is Hifi and things can be fishy, personal preference and taste can vary a hell lot but in pure terms, hifi being true to the source as much as possible is what can be judged and discussed based on data and measurements

 

[fineMen]

The problem of the original question was nothing ...

I was tempted to convey to the o/p that the question is ill posed. He started by implicating that there is this something, the "problem" namely, that contradicts measurement but "can be heard" right away passing-by at a shop or so. And that KEF tries to hide it.

In parts I was making fun of such sort of black magic (after asking several times for more info, politely).

It would have been fair for me, if he told what his problem is, pointing at the contradiction to the measurements and asking for a solution. I picked up the prob nevertheless and pointed to e/g the listening volume which is easily too high with a speaker devoid of the common trail of coloration and distortion. And not the least to mention with a speaker that is on purpose a bit bass shy as to better fit into typical (European) listening environments @home with lots of resonances and general room gain.

 

[YSC]

I was tempted to convey to the o/p that the question is ill posed. He started by implicating that there is this something, the "problem" namely, that contradicts measurement but "can be heard" right away passing-by at a shop or so. And that KEF tries to hide it.

In parts I was making fun of such sort of black magic (after asking several times for more info, politely).

It would have been fair for me, if he told what his problem is, pointing at the contradiction to the measurements and asking for a solution. I picked up the prob nevertheless and pointed to e/g the listening volume which is easily too high with a speaker devoid of the common trail of coloration and distortion. And not the least to mention with a speaker that is on purpose a bit bass shy as to better fit into typical (European) listening environments @home with lots of resonances and general room gain.

Yea that's exactly my thought, if he pointed with some in room, and showed some difference say in distortion or weird peak or nulls, I would say if possible, place it somewhere else to remove those artifects and try again, or even if he just hate the neutral speaker without colouration, then go for those worse measured ones. neutral and transparent and narrow diretivity might not be for everyone

 

[dogmamann]

i still say, I listened to 5 other speakers in that room and Kef was megaphony like there was two hands infront of every vocalists mouth,like a megaphone.!! As per measurements Kef is more room friendly than other similar priced speakers. Without looking into graphs, if one walks in to a demo room, it should be then audible that way. In my case it was not the best. Unless I read about it online, the only reason I would get them is for looks, not for how it sounds.

 

[diddley]

Well thats the OP opinion a whole lot of people have another, including me.
And i have them and am very very satisfied, but if you see the OP username you might get a hint.

 

[dogmamann]

Well thats the OP opinion a whole lot of people have another, including me.
And i have them and am very very satisfied, but if you see the OP username you might get a hint.

there is no rule that you have to like something because it’s liked by a group. And I am not the only one who didn’t get impressed by it. And that’s how it works. I see no reason, to call out names for that. Since the fans already knows well their product , why should they be worried about some random person on the internet giving his impression about it? To me, this is it: it’s a high quality product with lot of details but shy on top, bit bloated on low bass, bit megaphony in upper midrange, narrow in soundstage, amazingly 3 dimensional in space with accurate imaging, well crafted, well designed(perfect proportions, I like it over the reference 5), easy to drive. Overall, if I have say did l like it, except for the megaphone feel everything else is quite acceptable. If course there are worse speakers for the money. I am pretty sure not everyone will be impressed by it. But that’s how people’s preference of sound is. It’s not ignorance of text book perfection but it’s how the final voicing is likeable for a crowd or not.

 

[FrankW]

I listened to 5 other speakers in that room and Kef was megaphony like there was two hands infront of every vocalists mouth,like a megaphone.!!

 

[fineMen]

there is no rule that you have to like something because it’s liked by a group. ... bit megaphony in upper midrange, narrow in soundstage, ...

As already said, preferrence is key, and that's subjective, unquestionable. As far as I recall it correctly, the famous Harman surveys didn't ask for the reasoning behind the preferrence verdict.

I'm used to horn loaded mid/treble since decades. Accidentially most (good ones) show, similar to the R3 in particular, a dip somewhere in the upper mids (say, 2kHz) which is filled up by room reverberation. That's the opposite of what many conventional speakers do. Those are flat on axis, but show rough irregularities off axis in this f/ register. Mostly dips originating in the vertical separation of the individual drivers.

 

[dogmamann]

As already said, preferrence is key, and that's subjective, unquestionable. As far as I recall it correctly, the famous Harman surveys didn't ask for the reasoning behind the preferrence verdict.

I'm used to horn loaded mid/treble since decades. Accidentially most (good ones) show, similar to the R3 in particular, a dip somewhere in the upper mids (say, 2kHz) which is filled up by room reverberation. That's the opposite of what many conventional speakers do. Those are flat on axis, but show rough irregularities off axis in this f/ register. Mostly dips originating in the vertical separation of the individual drivers.

Can this effect be equed out ?

 

[fpitas]

Can this effect be equed out ?

If you mean the dip at 2kHz from a horn: no. The power appears slightly off-axis. If you EQ for flat on-axis you just make a screechy mess.

 

[tuga]

To be honest, I didn’t feel there was a roll off of 6db. The details were all there but bit muted. But there was some megaphone effect on the Kef which I did not understand what part was making it sound like that. To me, reference 3 sounded Like the highest quality hyper detailed megaphone one can buy, paired with some high quality subs.

That’s my feeling. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

Since the Kef uses a coaxial mid-tweeter, is it not possible that Stereoplay might not have set the mic to the correct axis?

 

[mhardy6647]

EQs existed since 70s or even before. The crowd who never digested the idea of the EQ would never like the idea no matter what.

Just to be clear EQ dates back to the dawn of electrical (as opposed to acoustic) recording, because the disks (records) -- and, later, tape -- were themselves not disposed to flat recording curves.
In terms of playback EQ -- car radios began having rudimentary tone control ("VOICE"/"MUSIC") in at least the 1940s, and "graphic EQ" for hifi applications at least dates back to the fabled Blonder-Tongue Audio Baton of the 1950s.

source: https://www.endino.com/photo9.html

OK, I feel better now, at any rate.

 

[fineMen]

Can this effect be equed out ?

Good that you ask. No, don't. You would hurt yourself. What can be done is to apply some damping foam to the horn's outward rim. With my QSC horns ( aka econowave de luxe) it worked perfectly, gone in total, using a 2cm wide, 1cm thick strip of basotect material. Electro Voice HR90 didn't react that well, though. JBL's elder designs are hopeless in this regard.

Btw, please don't ignore the relevance of setting the correct and equal (both!) loudness for a comparison. The KEFs are all optimized for smaller European living rooms with massive walls, the couch at or close to one of the walls. Subjectively lacking bass will drive people to crank it up pronouncing the mids even more. Result is listening fatigue and subsequently hyperacousis, especially if the muscles in the neck get tense due to exaggerated attention ... man is not a machine.

 

[fpitas]

Just to be clear EQ dates back to the dawn of electrical (as opposed to acoustic) recording, because the disks (records) -- and, later, tape -- were themselves not disposed to flat recording curves.
In terms of playback EQ -- car radios began having rudimentary tone control ("VOICE"/"MUSIC") in at least the 1940s, and "graphic EQ" for hifi applications at least dates back to the fabled Blonder-Tongue Audio Baton of the 1950s.

OK, I feel better now, at any rate.

Good for getting general tonality to where you want. But most likely fixed Q. It was very tough for the old analog stuff to get the flexibility of DSP. I can dial up PEQ centered on 1Hz increments, with Q from 0.3 to 72. Take that, analog!