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Kawai MP11SE (digital piano) Amp Suggestions for a Newbie

jseyfert3

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Newbie here. My experience with "good" sound is extremely limited. Like most in my generation (I'm 31), I was raised on tiny tiny speakers in terrible earbuds, phones, laptops, integrated flatscreen TV's, etc. Nobody had any decent speakers. Growing up, at my friend's house "good" speakers were a box set surround sound with big subwoofer...

I did acquire a set of EpiCure 10 speakers, and after replacing the completely shot woofers with new ones from HUMAN Speakers, I thought they sounded pretty darn good. Though one has a damaged tweeter that needs to be replaced. Still, integrated TV speakers to EpiCure 10's with one damaged tweeter is in and of itself night and day, so...

Anyway, I am getting back into learning piano, and recently bought a Kawai MP11SE digital piano (keyboard). This generates internal sound, but does not have any internal speakers, at all. I'm working on getting a speaker setup. Below is my temporary setup, which I suspect may make some of you guys cry.
IMG_9324.jpg


Yes, a pair of random speakers I got from a friend a decade ago, and a $15 Amazon amplifier, plugged into the headphone jack.

For better or worse, I ended up buying a pair of HUMAN Model 61 speakers. I may have purchased something different had I found this site first, but it's too late now. I also couldn't really find any test results here for HUMAN speakers, so it's hard to say how they will compare, though I'm sure experienced people here may have some thoughts. They are relatively small (this is a small living room, and small space). They are two way speakers, with a 6" woofer, and have a rear vent port. The owner of the site claims they are ±2 dB from 38 Hz to 26 kHz, but has no test data to back that up, no test data in general, so none of the directivity/etc I'm slowly learning are important in addition to frequency response. Anyway, they are rated at 150 W, but I will NEVER be going this loud!

So, I'm looking for suggestion on an amplifier. I want something relatively small, to easily integrate somewhere into the stand I will build for the piano. I definately don't want to spend $1000 on an amp. After I found this site I was initially thinking of the TOPPING PA5 amp, because of the glowing review, before I found the threads discussing tons of quality issues. I want an amp that will last for years, obviously.

Primary use will be playing sounds from this piano. Eventually I may set up a computer to generate sound for me (live) instead of the internal piano sound. Secondary usage since this will be in the living room will be playing music if we just want to listen to music or have background music.

It looks like the Hypex stuff rates pretty good on reviews here. Would that be a good choice? A kit it totally cool. I don't mind doing some work myself. Soldering isn't a problem for me. I popped on the Hypex website and looked at the DIY kits, then looked for resellers, and a reseller popped up in my town (Madison, WI), selling the UCD400 Stereo Kit for $550.

One thing I'm not certain on with that amp though is volume control. It appears they do not have volume control, nor perhaps the ability to add it? The audio in is XLR connectors, and my Kawai outputs balanced audio on XLR connectors, but the output on that is fixed. There is also a pair of mono 1/4" audio jacks which output unbalanced audio, and that audio level can be controlled by the master VOLUME fader on the piano. From what I've read, it shouldn't really matter to use unbalanced audio given how short the connection will be, but it may be better to have a volume control on the amp for my secondary purpose of being able to play music when not playing the piano?

Anyway, looking for pretty much any and all feedback here. So much to take in when you find this site, and I don't want to be stuck deciding something for weeks...
 
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Rja4000

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Matias

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MAB

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You may or may not like my answer...
TBH, I would get a pair of self power monitors. Like JBL 305P, 306P, or 308P.
All you need is an XLR cable from the keyboard's outputs.
It's going to be hard to beat them at any cost, especially for your application.

You can keep your Human Model 61 for other purposes. Get a nice little Yamaha integrated amp to go with those and use them for listening, if you like them.
 

MAB

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Yeah, I was thinking the same!
Or Kali LP-6v2.


Currently 298 usd a pair!
Yeah, this is another great option!
 

antcollinet

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1 - Your speakers will probably be fine.
2 - You say you don't want to spend $100 - but then talk about the hypex at $500 - did you meain not $1000?
3 - Hypex are a very good choice but you may find a fully built amp for not much more than that kit. Plus the UCD is a prior generation of hypex and not as good as the current ncore models. I'd look at an amp based on the Ncore MP variants (3 different power ratings)
4 - no, they do not generally include a volume control. Either your source (eg piano, or DAC in preamp mode) needs to control the volume, or you could add a simple volume control such as the Behringer Monitor 1:


You would also need to think about how you switch inputs between piano and music. Some amps built with the Hypex modules are so called integrated amps with input switching and volume control built in. Here is a link to an EU assembler - I'm not aware which USAnian assemblers do this:

That version uses the lowest power of the Ncore amp modules (125W into 4ohm). They also offer the two higher power variants.
 

symphara

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Why not use good headphones? That's what I do with my Clavinova.
 

Matias

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symphara

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Uh... What?
? He said he has a headphone output. I have it too on my digital piano and that's how I mostly use it, with headphones. I'm actually much happier than playing sound out loud and I don't pester anyone with my practice.
 

MAB

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Yes, totally know what a Clavinova is...
I'm just always amazed when someone says "I'm thinking about x." and someone says "What about y?"
 

symphara

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Yes, totally know what a Clavinova is...
I'm just always amazed when someone says "I'm thinking about x." and someone says "What about y?"
It's not that complicated. I had a similar problem with the OP (wanted better sound out of the digital piano) and I fixed it with good headphones. And the OP is absolutely free to utterly ignore my suggestion, it's hardly that big of an inconvenience. Plus, it's not like I said "take up guitar".
 
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MAB

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It's not that complicated. I had a similar problem with the OP (wanted better sound out of the digital piano) and I fixed it with good headphones. And the OP is absolutely free to utterly ignore my suggestion, it's hardly that big of an inconvenience. Plus, it's not like I said "take up guitar".
Fair. Looking at OP's kit... Needs speakers more than headphones! But both could benefit an upgrade for sure...
Also, I am one of the people who much prefer instrument speakers over headphones.
And, perhaps I am grouchy this morning!;)

p.s. this is a stage piano, so only has headphone jack, no built-in speakers...
 

symphara

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Fair. Looking at OP's kit... Needs speakers more than headphones! But both could benefit an upgrade for sure...
Also, I am one of the people who much prefer instrument speakers over headphones.
Yes, my very personal feel here is that it's best to practice using a volume that's as close as possible to an acoustic piano. When I was practicing a lot I was always in an apartment and this is a problem. However you can get the realistic volume and make it completely private by using headphones, which is why I suggested it. If you use good headphones it actually sounds good.

PS: I love Kawai. The best piano I ever played was an 8ft Kawai grand, it was magnificent.
 

tomtoo

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Just get a aiyima a07, be happy not have spend 'money for nothing'.
I look at your setup, and think hey this guy wants to play piano. No computer, no mixer, no sequencer, no midi. So just get a nice littel amp, thats it.
 

JayGilb

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I would go with the Topping PA5 and use the 1/4" jacks from your Kawai to feed it. The speakers you already have will suffice.
If you use the xlr outs from your Kawai, then you will have to use the external amp's volume control, because the xlr levels are fixed.
 

TimW

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For better or worse, I ended up buying a pair of HUMAN Model 61 speakers.
Those look a lot like the Dayton Audio BR-1 cabinets.
61e.jpg
300-645_HR_0.default.jpg

I have a pair of Philharmonic Audio Affordable Accuracy Monitors made using these cabs and a Morel tweeter. The Human Pro 007 woofer looks very similar to the Dayton Audio DC160-8 woofer used in the Philharmonic speaker externally, but the motor and frame is different.
007-new-front.jpg
295-305_ALT_1.jpg

007-new-rear.jpg
295-305_ALT_0.jpg

Overall I think the Philharmonic speakers are decent and I appreciate the bass extension provided from this mid-sized bookshelf box. If you like the sound of your Human speakers I see no reason to swap them out for something else. However if you are using some cheap speakers for the piano right now, where are the Human speakers? being used somewhere else in the home? If they are your main speakers for listening to music then it may make morse sense to get some affordable powered studio monitors just for the keyboard. Powered monitors are what is typically used for keyboards and it's nice to not have an amplifier to stash somewhere. You could get an interface for controlling the volume of those speakers which could also be used to connect a computer to your keyboard in the future.
 
OP
J

jseyfert3

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Wow. This is why I love a good forum, lots of advice, and things to think about. I'm going to touch a few things really quick I noticed, and come back later for a more detailed review and research of the suggestions posted.

2 - You say you don't want to spend $100 - but then talk about the hypex at $500 - did you meain not $1000?
Yup, typo, sorry. Corrected that. My initial post was written really fast.

Why not use good headphones? That's what I do with my Clavinova.
Headphones will occasionally be used. Mostly when I do not want to disturb the other two people I live with. In general, I prefer speakers over headphones if practical. I have AudioTechnia M50X (yes, I am aware not recommended by the review here) and Bose QC35ii (recommended by the review here). The AudioTechnica were my first set of "good" headphones, and I got the Bose QC35ii's for work, to listen to music as I'm often away from my desk doing hands-on stuff, and cords get in the way, so I use bluetooth for that application.

PS: I love Kawai. The best piano I ever played was an 8ft Kawai grand, it was magnificent.
Yup. The Kawai actions are really nice on their higher end digitals. Though Roland's high-end actions also seemed nice. Unfortunately I couldn't compare Kawai, Roland, and Yamaha actions all in the same store.

My piano lessons are on a Kawai baby grand, at least so far (it's possible it may be an upright, if my lesson times change, as the store I'm taking lessons at only has the baby grand and an upright for teachers to give lessons on).

Just get a aiyima a07, be happy not have spend 'money for nothing'.
I look at your setup, and think hey this guy wants to play piano. No computer, no mixer, no sequencer, no midi. So just get a nice littel amp, thats it.
I saw that amp recommended somewhere, maybe the piano forum I was on?

And yup. Primary goal is playing piano. Eventually I do want a computer, to try using that to generate sounds for me instead of internal sounds. But even with a computer, I still want the ability to just flick a couple power switches and play with the internal Kawai sounds, for when I want to play and not mess with computers.

I would go with the Topping PA5 and use the 1/4" jacks from your Kawai to feed it. The speakers you already have will suffice.
If you use the xlr outs from your Kawai, then you will have to use the external amp's volume control, because the xlr levels are fixed.
I was planning on getting a PA5, but decided against it after I read the quality issues on it (as mentioned in my original post). I don't like buying stuff that is likely to die in a short period of time. With some exceptions, like if I need a power tool but may use it like once a year, I may get a Harbor Freight tool. Or that $15 Amazon amp. Got it to power those cheap speakers years ago. An amp I'm going to use almost every day, or a power tool I'm going to use regularily? No thanks.

Those look a lot like the Dayton Audio BR-1 cabinets.
<pictures removed>
I have a pair of Philharmonic Audio Affordable Accuracy Monitors made using these cabs and a Morel tweeter. The Human Pro 007 woofer looks very similar to the Dayton Audio DC160-8 woofer used in the Philharmonic speaker externally, but the motor and frame is different.
Yeah, they do. In fact, he offers a kit version of the drivers in the Model 61's and says they work nicely in that case.
This is a special version of the HUMAN K-61 that fits a cabinet sold by Parts Express.

It is almost an industry cliche that a six inch two way speaker is the easiest to build and make sound good. This is because a woofer that small usually has great dispersion and control characteristics. It helps to use one of the best six inch woofers ever designed, with a very low resonant frequency and out of band rejection. Combine this with a tweeter that is crossed over low and also has fabulous dispersion and low distortion and you have one sweet little speaker.

EPI enjoyed great popularity for their model 50, followed up with the 60 and 70, and their cousin the Epicure 5. Genesis built three small six inch two way speakers, the Basic, the 6, and the (vented) V-6. Customers who own the HUMAN 61 also seem to admire it very much. Many people have built their own versions of this speaker using cabinets of their own design and creation, but not everyone can, or wants to, make their own boxes.

It just happens that Parts Express currently sells a pair of cabinets that are well-suited to this design. They are pre-cut for a 6" woofer, and I make a custom version of my tweeter, the PRO 002 M3, to fit the pre-cut tweeter hole.
Makes me wonder if he buys those cases for the Model 61 himself, perhaps modifying them slightly, or if those cases were based on his Model 61 design? Or he sells them on Parts Express? Interestingly, the Model 61 is only sold in the black ash vinyl, and most of his other speakers he offers in at least two finish options....

Overall I think the Philharmonic speakers are decent and I appreciate the bass extension provided from this mid-sized bookshelf box. If you like the sound of your Human speakers I see no reason to swap them out for something else. However if you are using some cheap speakers for the piano right now, where are the Human speakers? being used somewhere else in the home? If they are your main speakers for listening to music then it may make morse sense to get some affordable powered studio monitors just for the keyboard. Powered monitors are what is typically used for keyboards and it's nice to not have an amplifier to stash somewhere. You could get an interface for controlling the volume of those speakers which could also be used to connect a computer to your keyboard in the future.
I don't have them yet. :D I ordered them Dec 14th, and he didn't think I'd get them before Christmas. I think he builds stuff more or less as people order it, I don't get the impression he keeps a large stock of pre-assembled stuff laying around.

I did order them specifically for the piano, being smaller speakers and with somewhat limited room here.

For other uses, I have the previously mentioned Epicure 10's with the woofers replaced with his Pro 001's back in 2020 when I got these speakers (the prior owner of my house I had just bought had screwed them into the ceiling and drywalled around them, and I cut them out of the ceiling. The surrounds were shot, and I found HUMAN Speakers as he sells drivers for Genesis and Epicure speakers (he used to work for Genesis in the '80's). With the order of the 61's, I also bought a set of his Pro 002 ME1's to replace the tweeters in the Epicure 10's (one of the tweeters was damaged too before I got them), along with his replacement crossover for them.

I also got his DIY driver kits for the Model 81's (two-way, 8" woofers) and his C2 center channel speaker, back in 2020. My original plan, which hasn't (yet) happened, was to build DIY versions of his Model 81+ speakers for front left/right, his C2 for center channel, and use the rebuilt Epicure 10's for rear left/right on a 5 channel surround sound system for my TV. I now have all the drivers, plus two 4x8 sheets of 3/4" MDF, a circle cutting rig for my plunge router...all I need is to actually build them! I may change course a little bit now that I've found this site, but we'll see. It would probably be worth it to just build them now so I actually have something for surround sound, and I can always build new cases or speakers after I "finish" digesting all the info here...if that's even possible...

Anyway, long way of saying I have other speakers if I want to listen to music. Those speakers will be in the downstairs living/family room, where there's a bit more room in general. Though I have a Sony AVR, the STR-DN1080, and now I've read here that AVRs score relatively poorly on amplifier reviews. Ah well, one thing at a time. Or at least that's what I should do....
 

TimW

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My original plan, which hasn't (yet) happened, was to build DIY versions of his Model 81+ speakers for front left/right, his C2 for center channel, and use the rebuilt Epicure 10's for rear left/right on a 5 channel surround sound system for my TV.
It sounds like you have a matching set of speakers for creating a surround sound system if you use the Human Model 61s you ordered for that. They may not be the best speakers and your AVR isn't either but they will do the job. On this forum we obsess over the smallest details in measurements for fun, that doesn't mean you can't get enjoyment from a system comprised of poorly measuring gear. I would recommend you follow through with your Human speaker surround sound system and go with something different and more objectively high performance for the keyboard. That way you get to have fun learning from DIY and surround sound setup without investing much more money, but you also get to experience objectively great audio performance with your keyboard system. That's what I would do anyway.

The reason so many people here recommend active studio monitors is because they often given excellent objective performance for a reasonable price. Stand-alone amplifiers may measure better than the ones built into these monitors but they cost much more and don't offer an audible benefit in most cases. There is also an inherent advantage to active speaker design. This is partly due to the direct connection between amplifier and speaker driver but more importantly, the better crossover implementation that can be done actively.

Eventually I do want a computer, to try using that to generate sounds for me instead of internal sounds. But even with a computer, I still want the ability to just flick a couple power switches and play with the internal Kawai sounds, for when I want to play and not mess with computers.
I'm no expert when it comes to keyboards, so maybe you don't need another device for volume control. But have a look at the Motu M4, excellent objective performance and a whole lot of functionality. You can connect it to your keyboards analog outputs and connect the monitor outputs to active speakers. With the zero-latency hardware monitoring option, you can send audio directly from those inputs to the monitor outputs with volume control. You can also connect it to your computer via USB and play tunes that way. Or connect it to the keyboard via Midi and use plugins in the computer. There are also microphone inputs if you ever wanted to record with a couple of those.

As for studio monitors, a couple good options include the Kali LP-6v2 and the JBL 306P MK II.
 

chelgrian

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Newbie here. My experience with "good" sound is extremely limited. Like most in my generation (I'm 31), I was raised on tiny tiny speakers in terrible earbuds, phones, laptops, integrated flatscreen TV's, etc. Nobody had any decent speakers. Growing up, at my friend's house "good" speakers were a box set surround sound with big subwoofer...

I did acquire a set of EpiCure 10 speakers, and after replacing the completely shot woofers with new ones from HUMAN Speakers, I thought they sounded pretty darn good. Though one has a damaged tweeter that needs to be replaced. Still, integrated TV speakers to EpiCure 10's with one damaged tweeter is in and of itself night and day, so...

Anyway, I am getting back into learning piano, and recently bought a Kawai MP11SE digital piano (keyboard). This generates internal sound, but does not have any internal speakers, at all. I'm working on getting a speaker setup. Below is my temporary setup, which I suspect may make some of you guys cry.
View attachment 251126

Yes, a pair of random speakers I got from a friend a decade ago, and a $15 Amazon amplifier, plugged into the headphone jack.

For better or worse, I ended up buying a pair of HUMAN Model 61 speakers. I may have purchased something different had I found this site first, but it's too late now. I also couldn't really find any test results here for HUMAN speakers, so it's hard to say how they will compare, though I'm sure experienced people here may have some thoughts. They are relatively small (this is a small living room, and small space). They are two way speakers, with a 6" woofer, and have a rear vent port. The owner of the site claims they are ±2 dB from 38 Hz to 26 kHz, but has no test data to back that up, no test data in general, so none of the directivity/etc I'm slowly learning are important in addition to frequency response. Anyway, they are rated at 150 W, but I will NEVER be going this loud!

So, I'm looking for suggestion on an amplifier. I want something relatively small, to easily integrate somewhere into the stand I will build for the piano. I definately don't want to spend $1000 on an amp. After I found this site I was initially thinking of the TOPPING PA5 amp, because of the glowing review, before I found the threads discussing tons of quality issues. I want an amp that will last for years, obviously.

Primary use will be playing sounds from this piano. Eventually I may set up a computer to generate sound for me (live) instead of the internal piano sound. Secondary usage since this will be in the living room will be playing music if we just want to listen to music or have background music.

It looks like the Hypex stuff rates pretty good on reviews here. Would that be a good choice? A kit it totally cool. I don't mind doing some work myself. Soldering isn't a problem for me. I popped on the Hypex website and looked at the DIY kits, then looked for resellers, and a reseller popped up in my town (Madison, WI), selling the UCD400 Stereo Kit for $550.

One thing I'm not certain on with that amp though is volume control. It appears they do not have volume control, nor perhaps the ability to add it? The audio in is XLR connectors, and my Kawai outputs balanced audio on XLR connectors, but the output on that is fixed. There is also a pair of mono 1/4" audio jacks which output unbalanced audio, and that audio level can be controlled by the master VOLUME fader on the piano. From what I've read, it shouldn't really matter to use unbalanced audio given how short the connection will be, but it may be better to have a volume control on the amp for my secondary purpose of being able to play music when not playing the piano?

Anyway, looking for pretty much any and all feedback here. So much to take in when you find this site, and I don't want to be stuck deciding something for weeks...
You have a $2000 stage piano you are short changing its sound if you skimp out on amplification. It's somewhat heavy to gig with but people who do gig with that quality of piano would be pairing it with something like an RCF TT-08 A II.

I know you have a Kawai but there is a user called cphollis on the Nord forums who has an epic thread comparing pretty much every active speaker that people use for giging with recommendations.
 
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