Kali Audio IN-8 Studio Monitor Review

[direstraitsfan98]

I apologize if I missed it somehow or I'm not reading the measurements right, but are there measurements for THD for frequency? I'm always curious how much distortion there is when a 5 or 8inch driver is playing back anything under 80hz. I don't see those measurements here, though. Will this be included in future reviews? I think just as much as as frequency response, THD measurements are important too.

Again, sorry for the stupid questions, but, when you're referring to THD of a speaker, is it referring to the distortion of the drivers?

 

[tomtoo]

HeHe, it looks like speaker testing is some real fun. ; )

 

[JustIntonation]

Question: since someone had promised me the Kali LP-6, I asked Nate to send me LP-8 in addition. Well, naturally the person that promised the LP-6 took his offer off the table since he thought Kalip was sending me LP-6. So should we be testing LP-8 or LP-6? If LP-8 is an IN-8 without midrange, I like to measure that. But if interest is higher for LP-6, I can ask Nate if he can send that instead.

I'll vote for the LP-6. Smaller center-to-center spacing and lower crossover point (1500Hz) and smaller woofer means better vertical off-axis.

 

[DDF]

I agree with you if a manufacturer gave me the gear to test. If a member gave me something to test, no. If you are buying a used car and bring a mechanic to check it out, you expect him to run his concerns with the car manufacturer before he tells you if you should or should not buy something? That is the service I provide. It is working for us, the consumers, with electronics. Why do you ask that I do different for speakers?

The only answer would be that you trust the manufacturer data more than you trust mine. Keep in mind that only a fraction of the speakers I test will have anechoic or NFS testing data from manufacturer. In that case, what exactly do you think the manufacturer can offer in protest?

I think you are basing your comments on publishing format where manufacturers loan gear to magazine. They check with manufacturer because they have to keep good relations as best as they can for make a business model work. I have no business model to work. I bought this expensive system so that we have an objective and fact filled reference to make purchase decision. Occasionally we may get it wrong in which case I expect the manufacturer reach out to investigate. If they don't then they would have answered me to start anyway.

Net, net, put the hat of a consumer on. Not manufacturer.

Thanks for responding. As I made clear, your efforts are appreciated. However I believe there's a responsibility to the truth (not just the consumer, picking sides). That's what science is all about after all.

Contrary to popular belief, all manufactures aren't bad guys. They have people livelihoods to consider and it would do us all well to remember this to make sure a damning review is accurate.

I think your conclusion that I trust manufacturer data more than yours is unfair and unwarranted. I trust Klippel's data more than anyone's and have clearly advocated for a comparison against that AND an anechoic chamber measure as an anchor, not against any manufacturer's data (you'll never find me saying that once, please don't put words in my mouth). As Krunok pointed out, surely Klippel has anechoic data available to use as the anchor?

And as I said, if the calibration is accurate, I'll happily back away on that point. But then why do you express reservations with your results and want to dig deeper to verify their accuracy if you're already there? It would also be a boon to the outcomes' weight if this can be shared. If its available, why not share it?

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about, please scroll down about halfway thru this article, and he starts posting measurements of THD.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...g/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker-review/

These are the types of measurements I'm very interested in seeing, and I'm sure many others as well. I think low distortion is one of the most important things in a speaker and it's usually not acknowledged at all. I am very curious how much distortion there is with the three 8" woofers on the Revel salon2's @ 30hz at 100 or 105dB SPL.

 

[JustIntonation]

Can do. The odd shape may not make it easy to fully cover it but I am assuming if I get most of the way, it is good enough.

Great! Yes odd shape but I simply used thick woolen socks and it stuffs just fine with that. The audible difference in mid quality is big. Will measure tonight but I suspect much flatter in frequency response and with better decay/csd.

 

[amirm]

I apologize if I missed it somehow or I'm not reading the measurements right, but are there measurements for THD for frequency? I'm always curious how much distortion there is when a 5 or 8inch driver is playing back anything under 80hz. I don't see those measurements here, though. Will this be included in future reviews? I think just as much as as frequency response, THD measurements are important too.

Again, sorry for the stupid questions, but, when you're referring to THD of a speaker, is it referring to the distortion of the drivers?

Not yet. I don't have a standardized setup yet for THD measurements. Working on it between reviews and dealing with arguments on the forum.

Personally I don't put a lot of weight on that data as situations change as to how loud you listen and how audible the problems are. For that, I will likely perform listening tests with powerful amps and see what the outcome is.

 

[Sancus]

If the the unit isn't damaged and the measurement method is high confidence , then the review is fair.
Perhaps we just have different views of the possible repercussions of an errant highly negative review, and the responsibility that entails.

Having nonsense reviews elsewhere doesn't justify publishing damnation if its not yet warranted.
To say "they're worse so this is OK" is not an acceptable justification.
I do agree with you that false praise reviews are also highly damaging, but to the consumer. I've bought junk based on that myself, and I'm not happy about it. But the intent of ASR is to rise above that, isn't it?

Yes, the difference between us is that I care a lot more about repercussions to the consumer than to a manufacturer. Manufacturers are for-profit entities trying to convince me to spend my hard earned money on their products. False positive reviews cost me more than false negatives. In the case of a false negative, there are plenty of other products to consider.

The review is honest: Amir measured the unit and this is how he found it to perform. If it's not representative of all samples, while that might redeem the design, it still reveals a problem with the IN-8. The fact that units are making it out to consumers in this state, such that many might just assume "that's the way it's supposed to be" is not good.

Other manufacturers like Neumann help prevent this whole situation by publishing not only detailed measurements for the speaker, but also what is the acceptable variation unit to unit from the factory. So every user knows exactly what to expect. And that, to me, should be what we expect as a baseline from every single manufacturer.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Not yet. I don't have a standardized setup yet for THD measurements. Working on it between reviews and dealing with arguments on the forum.

Personally I don't put a lot of weight on that data as situations change as to how loud you listen and how audible the problems are. For that, I will likely perform listening tests with powerful amps and see what the outcome is.

Ah, okay. To be honest, I am starting to question all of my audio philosophies since coming to your forum, but, I had always made the blind assumption that you actually WANT vanishingly low distortion, because low distortion means better sound. It sounds right on paper, no idea if it's actually important. My gut feeling always told me that it is, but yeah. I do listen quite loud a lot, I like breakbeat and electronica music a lot which has substantial energies in the sub 100hz region at almost every moment throughout the song tracks. Not that I do not listen to 100 or 105dB more than maybe 15 or 20 minutes a week but sometimes I do.

I know I should just be getting a subwoofer to handle below 30hz but I don't really have the space for a subwoofer in my system and I'm more than happy with the quality of the sound I'm currently getting.

I very much look forward to seeing you get a setup for measuring the THD for speakers, I would just love to see all sorts of THD measurements for different speakers.

 

[napilopez]

I do find the notion of cherry-picked reviewer samples being a common thing pretty funny, considering the vast amount of early issues I've had with review units over the years - far more than I've had as a consumer. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but if it does, I'd be willing to bet it's outweighed by the number of early production units reviewers tend to get, which are more likely to have problems. Major example outside of the speaker world: Samsung Galaxy Note Fold.

That said, I do not think a manufacturer should have a say in the review process until after it's essentially complete. If the results are largely diverging from what is expected, one should reach out and see what's going on. But if there's a defect, that's still a problem worth noting in the review. As it stands, these are just growing pains - we don't have a big enough sample size of speakers with other data to reference.

Anyway, I'm not concerned about Kali's reputation. Keep in mind this is ultimately a temporary situation;it's only been a few days. Either Kali will be redeemed and come out stronger - which I think is more likely the case - or it won't and it'll make better speakers. If this is a blip with the unit or klippel, it'll quell over once we have a new unit to test and third-party graphs. Either way, we get more data to make informed decisions.

 

[amirm]

And as I said, if the calibration is accurate, I'll happily back away on that point. But then why do you express reservations with your results and want to dig deeper to verify their accuracy if you're already there? It would also be a boon to the outcomes' weight if this can be shared. If its available, why not share it?

There is no calibration process in the system (outside of microphone sensitivity). It is a fully automated system with feedback to adapt to what it is measuring. There are some degrees of freedom and that is what I was testing last night. Results of that is that it didn't make a difference (distance to the speaker).

As to why I am remain cautious is as I explained, I am being conservative and being very cautious. Just measuring a few speakers has built up my confidence a lot. It is not based on any specific information that I am using the system wrong or that it is operating incorrectly.

 

[amirm]

Ah, okay. To be honest, I am starting to question all of my audio philosophies since coming to your forum, but, I had always made the blind assumption that you actually WANT vanishingly low distortion, because low distortion means better sound.

You would but the tools here are not there. The microphone is a transducer itself. So what we measure is the sum total of the microphone distortion and speaker. Room modes impact these measurements as well which rules out in-room measurements such as what you showed. Perhaps I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater but I don't currently trust everything in the chain for distortion. Also, the bulk of distortion comes from the woofer at low frequencies. If so, our threshold of hearing is very high in that region so audibility is not very high.

 

[DDF]

You raise an interesting point. @DDF comments seem totally fair, logical and reasonable. Yet, in the context of the audio industry and its constant stream of positive bias, bad reviews are sooo refreshing. If one googles a bit, one can find customer's some measurements of the Kali in question and they don't seem to disagree with the data Amir has posted.

The "something must be broken" argument is getting a bit old as well. Broken as an explanation for not delivering performance doesn't seem to happen that often anymore in other industries/consumer products categories...

There are good points that it could be a QC issue, but it could also be damaged and no fault to Kali. Kali didn't ship the speaker to Amir and if that shipping damaged it, its not their fault. We don't know.

The test results differ significantly from Kali's:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.10897/page-7#post-305434
and from independent 3rd party measures:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.10897/page-7#post-305458

I searched but didn't find any other results showing this large step @ 300Hz. Where can that be found? That'd be another interesting data point

 

[LeftCoastTim]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about, please scroll down about halfway thru this article, and he starts posting measurements of THD.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...g/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker-review/

These are the types of measurements I'm very interested in seeing, and I'm sure many others as well. I think low distortion is one of the most important things in a speaker and it's usually not acknowledged at all. I am very curious how much distortion there is with the three 8" woofers on the Revel salon2's @ 30hz at 100 or 105dB SPL.

I personally don't understand the obsession with distortion when the frequency response is completely unknown. If the FR is +/-10dB, coloring the sound so much, does it matter that distortion is very low?

I want to see first good on- and off-axis frequency response, and then look at harmonic distortion. Getting the first part is hard enough.

 

[PierreV]

There are good points that it could be a QC issue, but it could also be damaged and no fault to Kali. Kali didn't ship the speaker to Amir and if that shipping damaged it, its not their fault. We don't know.

The test results differ significantly from Kali's:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.10897/page-7#post-305434
and from independent 3rd party measures:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.10897/page-7#post-305458

I searched but didn't find any other results showing this large step @ 300Hz. Where can that be found? That'd be another interesting data point

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2019/02/09/Kali-LP8-Review.html#frequency-response

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/assets/Kali/OptimalFreq.png

There are lots of different configs on that page as the guy tries multiple switches positions.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I personally don't understand the obsession with distortion when the frequency response is completely unknown. If the FR is +/-10dB, coloring the sound so much, does it matter that distortion is very low?

I want to see first good on- and off-axis frequency response, and then look at harmonic distortion. Getting the first part is hard enough.

What do you mean frequency response is unknown? Typically most speakers have published frequency response measurements, but are lacking the THD ones. Which is why I was hoping Amir could do this. And, well, if Amir did get it setup somehow he's obviously not going to stop doing the off and on axis measurements. I still think distortion matters unless someone can tell me otherwise and explain why it doesnt matter.

 

[DDF]

There is no calibration process in the system (outside of microphone sensitivity). It is a fully automated system with feedback to adapt to what it is measuring. There are some degrees of freedom and that is what I was testing last night. Results of that is that it didn't make a difference (distance to the speaker).

As to why I am remain cautious is as I explained, I am being conservative and being very cautious. Just measuring a few speakers has built up my confidence a lot. It is not based on any specific information that I am using the system wrong or that it is operating incorrectly.

Thanks again for responding.

I never said they were wrong, please don't put words in my mouth. I did say confidence wasn't high yet that it was right. I based this on your own words, as I linked to in my very first post before the roof came down
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.10897/page-10#post-305967
"Whether they are right in the absolute becomes secondary"
Followed up by your further expressed doubt
"But your point is also good. I am doing everything I can to verify accuracy of the system."

 

[DDF]

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2019/02/09/Kali-LP8-Review.html#frequency-response

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/assets/Kali/OptimalFreq.png

There are lots of different configs on that page as the guy tries multiple switches positions.

Different speaker, and different response errors than Amir is measuring.

 

[amirm]

You said that distance was about 1' , but typical distance in measurements is 1-2m and is used in speaker design and measurements. Large 3-way speakers with W-M xo at 100-350Hz need at least this 1-2 meters to sum "right" as designed. And measuring that is very difficult, because of the distance and long IR gating needed!

Commenting on this, such measurement are NOT in far field as they should be. They are a compromise so that a huge anechoic chamber is not needed. It introduces errors in the measurements. Here is Dr. Toole on his anechoic chamber measurements at NRC:

Anyone using 1 meter is definitely not in the far field of a speaker. To wit, here is the CEA-2034 standard:

Anechoic measurements are far better than in-room but they are not perfect. They have compromises as well.

Klippel NFS on the other hand, doesn't care. It on purpose measures near-field and computes far field.

You all need to be prepared for anechoic data not being fully accurate or as good as Klippel NFS.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Shame it can't measure thd...