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Kali Audio IN-8 Studio Monitor Review

Nice discussion here.

Demonstrates only some of the difficulties in how to evaluate and score loudspeakers by measurements! And emphasizes the need for accurate and comparable data, to see the whole picture with personal weighting of features/details.
 
Me Geithain 901 is an incredible speaker, i wish amir could test it..

Indeed, preference score should be calculated at the best possible ankle for each speaker, they don't always perform best on axis and positioning is different for each speaker for the best possible response.

Of course, spinorama and preference score doesn't show the benefits of coaxial design, or even the cardioid bass of the Geithain speakers, which is crucial for smooth frequency response in real environments...
 
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Nice discussion here.

Demonstrates only some of the difficulties in how to evaluate and score loudspeakers by measurements! And emphasizes the need for accurate and comparable data, to see the whole picture with personal weitghting of features.

Yep indeed. I think its great to have the score because it helps contextualize some things that might be difficult to eyeball, but at the same time I worry about people in the future just looking at the scores during a discussion of the speaker rather than the full picture. In fact, I'm almost certain that will happen, as there are already hints of it. So its important to be explicit about particular characteristics of certain speakers.
 
While this is not wrong, the 944K isn't their flagship, and since the SAR measurements match really well those given for the 944K:
RL-944K-Freifeld-eng.png

I guess we can trust those given for the 901K:
RL-901K-Freifeld-eng.png

which are definitely cleaner. They don't seem to have the same design as well, where one has a plate in front of a low crossing woofer and the other has the midrange and tweeter stuck to their small siblings' grill.
Unfortunately its hard to judge from the S&R isobars how well the angle measurements match the manufacturer ones.

The 804K which has also been measured from a 3rd party shows a bit different (nastier) 45° measurement

1580664723763.png

(source: https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/testberichte/fertiglautsprecher/536-me-geithain-804k )

compared to the manufacturer specs

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especially that directivity breakup at 2 Khz.

Even an old cheap KEF Q300 with a 2 generations older KEF coax measured by them showed a smoother directivity than the 804K

1580664970679.png


(source https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/testberichte/fertiglautsprecher/411-kef-q300 )
not mentioning the vertical directivity which is inherently even less continous on pseudocoaxials like the Geithains.
 
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Why does nobody comment on the prevalence of the third harmonic?

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The cheap class D amps... I can understand that a second dominant harmonic is preferred, within reasonable values, or clean profile, but that of the third dominant harmonic...

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
Thank you for mentioning this. With regards to distortion, transducers produce about an order of magnitude more distortion than the amplifier. If you want to lower distortion, spend money on the transducers first. At all of our price points, we carefully optimize transducers for linearity and symmetry using Finite Element Analysis. The associated reduction in 2nd order harmonic distortion causes 3rd to dominate. We are also using a 2 layer coil on the woofer with an oversized magnet, so that helps a little, and flux stabilization rings both above and below the top plate on the midrange. At a higher price point, we would be adding flux stabilization (and a few other features) to the HF transducer.
 
Unfortunately its hard to judge from the S&R isobars how well the angle measurements match the manufacturer ones.

The 804K which has also been measured from a 3rd party shows a bit different (nastier) 45° measurement

View attachment 48396
(source: https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/testberichte/fertiglautsprecher/536-me-geithain-804k )

compared to the manufacturer specs

View attachment 48397

especially that directivity breakup at 2 Khz.

Even an old cheap KEF Q300 with a 2 generations older KEF coax measured by them showed a smoother directivity than the 804K

View attachment 48399

(source https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/testberichte/fertiglautsprecher/411-kef-q300 )
not mentioning the vertical directivity which is inherently even less continous on pseudocoaxials like the Geithains.
Well, this is the hairiest situation, where you don't know who made an error - I don't think either is lying. Since even the on-axis is different (e.g. at 1.5k and 7k) while SAR matches perfectly for the 944K, I'm inclined to think that this third-party tester might be wrong in some way.
 
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Well, this is the hairiest situation, where you don't know who made an error - I don't think either is lying. Since even the on-axis is different (e.g. at 1.5k and 7k) while SAR matches perfectly for the 944K, I'm inclined to think that this third-party tester might be wrong in some way.
One possible reason for the differences could be the measuring distance, Hifi-Selbstbau measured them at one meter, while the Geithain measurements don't mention a distance and a higher distance (which is sensible for larger speakers) often smoothens the curves a bit. Nevertheless the vertical directivity problem of pseudocoaxial speakers like the Geithain remains, but our ears are luckily not so sensitive in vertical deviations.
 
First, take a close look at the horizontals in post 594, then try listening ~20 degrees off-axis before EQ*. I'd personally target any EQ efforts for that axis. EQ cannot fully resolve the on-axis symmetry issues, and starting with the flattest natural response is a plus. All that said, off-axis peaks are easily absorbed at such high frequencies, so different approaches could work.

* FWIW, Geddes optimized his round waveguides for 22 degrees. Coincidence?
Coincidence? No, I think that's because the speaker just doesn't measure that well in other listening windows. But I'm a cynical bastard! :D

Here's my take on listening axis; I believe the response should be equally smooth at all angles. This is because I believe all angles are important for the tonality of reflections and because I believe most people will shift around the sweet spot from time to time.
In my eyes speakers are not meant for solitary listening only, they are equally meant for social enjoyment. If there's a specific narrow listening window you have to deal with before the response goes to shit, the speaker is per my definition shit as well. It means the reflections will have a different sound than the direct sound you're listening to.
 
Man these threads are exploding with graphs.
 
Then is not the class D amp the guilty of H3 dominant. The key is how much total distortion in anechoic.

https://www.kaliaudio.com/lone-pine-studio-monitors

Kali LP-6

Lone-Pine-Distortion-Graphic-720px.png



Kali IN-8 without ghaphs

https://www.kaliaudio.com/independence
Class D amplifiers are going to be <0.1% distortion until they reach their limit and start to clip. Transducers are around 10x more. Also, the characteristic of the distortion curve is different. The amplifier is very clean and abruptly transitions to distortion at clipping, whereas the transducer starts with a modicum of distortion even at low level and gradually increases. Also, the distortion coming from the amplifier is relatively uniform across the frequency range, Really, the transducers dominate harmonic distortion until the amplifier clips.
 
So I finally braved the cold garage and measured my purchased sample of Kali IN-8. Here are the results in a more extensive manner per our later tests.

Let's get the most important message out:
View attachment 48334

Yup. The problem with anemic bass is gone. This makes sense as Charles reported that the tested sample had a bad woofer. Likely that lowered its output capability. Sans the cancellation around 8 to 10 kHz, this is a very smooth response. It shows up just as well in predicted in-room response:

View attachment 48335

I ran a few tests at different output level to see if there is any bass compression and there was none:

View attachment 48336

Tested level was third from the top. At the highest level, the IN-8 was quite unhappy (audibly) in attempting to reproduce the very low frequencies but even then, the in-band response was not impacted.

Unfortunately I did not run the levels in the ascending order so the distortion graphs are for lowest output level. Here they are in percentages:

View attachment 48338

Advanced Measurements
View attachment 48340

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Eye-candy Speaker Measurements
I drilled down into the soundfield (all up wave front from the speaker) at crossover frequencies of the woofer to midrange and midrange to tweeter:

View attachment 48344

The microphone is at the tweeter level so naturally the loudest sound is coming from the woofer so below the "nref" axis. We have one unified speaker instead of two distinct ones playing their own tunes which is what we want to see.

Same story repeats in the transition between the midrange and tweeter:

View attachment 48345

So boring in a good way. :)

Measurement Accuracy
Here is the polar plot for the highest measured frequency of 20 kHz:

View attachment 48346

This produces the most elongated measurement allowing us to see if it peaks at 0 degree. And it essentially does. I am not taking a protractor and poking a hole in the tweeter to align it with the microphone. :) So this is as good as it gets.

Conclusion
Seems like the mystery is resolved. The Kali IN-8 is indeed a well-designed speaker when it is not broken. :) I am relieved I did not like the sound of the broken one. :):)

Now someone needs to buy this speaker from me so that I can use the money to eat lunch tomorrow. No, it is not at a discount. It is the only Kali IN-8 with $100,000 measurement data!

I will link the review post to this one.
Thank You. Now you have an accurate review and metrics that is representative of the product that is offered for sale.
 
Class D amplifiers are going to be <0.1% distortion until they reach their limit and start to clip. Transducers are around 10x more. Also, the characteristic of the distortion curve is different. The amplifier is very clean and abruptly transitions to distortion at clipping, whereas the transducer starts with a modicum of distortion even at low level and gradually increases. Also, the distortion coming from the amplifier is relatively uniform across the frequency range, Really, the transducers dominate harmonic distortion until the amplifier clips.

And even then, we have to recognize the reality that humans are not terribly sensitive to physically realistic levels of harmonic distortion. I was recently doing some work with GedLee weighting for measurements of the LP-6, and although their HD is good but not spectacular, the GedLee numbers were excellent, correlating with my listening experience.
 
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@maty Forgive me for being skeptical about that claim.

@Charles Sprinkle - Driver distortion is certainly an interesting topic, but how relevant is it really for normal usage? What's your take given your experience with all kinds of special drivers and the sound quality relative to distortion from the drivers themselves? I stumbled upon this thread where the higher native distortion from the compression driver surprised me.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...vs-compression-drivers-horns.html#post5255123
 
@Charles Sprinkle a question I've never seen addressed - how is the IN-8 better than the LP-8? The 8" waveguide-dome format seems to be a pretty good design.
 
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