Just Trying to Learn

[Timcognito]

Maybe rethink and reword this because maybe this is what the OP is talking about and too much impressing and not enough informed expressing is happening.

 

[LevityProject]

Besides, we’re not a bunch of educators here. We’re a wide mix of varied people with huge breadth of knowledge, experience and skills. So you can’t expect everyone to act like one.

Very true ... but as a place of fun and learning, learning on how to engage with people might be helpful. I'd really like to see ASR be a different place than the other forums out there. Technical proficiency is through the roof which already sets it apart ... more humane discourse with people who are coming here from all sorts of backgrounds and knowledge levels would be a level up.

And I get it - some people aren't here to learn. I find a lot can happen by ignoring people who clearly demonstrate they aren't really on board with what is happening in any learning context. People who are resistant to learning something new by being here and who aren't willing to take a second look at their assumptions and barf out opinions from Music Radar reviews and "I know my Beyerdyanmic Headphones have the best sound and the measurements don't matter" or whatever are a lot like a child who acts out to get attention.

Point them back to reality, ignore the behaviour unless it's damaging to the intended ethos of the space, and otherwise move on from them in favour of those who are excited to learn and/or ready to learn.

 

[Petrushka]

Very true ... but as a place of fun and learning, learning on how to engage with people might be helpful. I'd really like to see ASR be a different place than the other forums out there. Technical proficiency is through the roof which already sets it apart ... more humane discourse with people who are coming here from all sorts of backgrounds and knowledge levels would be a level up.

And I get it - some people aren't here to learn. I find a lot can happen by ignoring people who clearly demonstrate they aren't really on board with what is happening in any learning context. People who are resistant to learning something new by being here and who aren't willing to take a second look at their assumptions and barf out opinions from Music Radar reviews and "I know my Beyerdyanmic Headphones have the best sound and the measurements don't matter" or whatever are a lot like a child who acts out to get attention.

Point them back to reality, ignore the behaviour unless it's damaging to the intended ethos of the space, and otherwise move on from them in favour of those who are excited to learn and/or ready to learn.

We’re on the internet and expected to act like adults?

Hmmmm.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I should probably mention that while I might not be an engineering expert, I am an expert in the field of learning and education. At least, that's what my degrees and field experience say.

Listening does not = learning. If we are talking about learning we are talking about something different than mere passive listening and information retaining/regurgitating. Learning is a far more complex mechanism than what people are saying here.

That isn't to discount getting oriented and taking in new information with an open mind. Coming into ASR with a closed mind would be the antithesis to learning.

If this is to truly be a community of learning, this might a helpful place to start on the technical side of what learning is and is not.

Learning and Memory (Section 4, Chapter 7) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston

learning involves changes in the strength of synaptic connections between neurons.

And Serotonin has a significant impact on synaptic plasticity ... the ability of neurons to change their connections in response to experiences. Serotonin also influences various brain functions like mood, sleep and appetite.

To put it in the words of the largest study on learning that accounts for advancements in neuroscience:

From p.52. especially point 3.
View attachment 393877

Coming down hard on people is not the right approach to have someone learn something in a meaningful way, because emotions are the gateway to learning.

While this study focused on k-12 education, the principles can apply to a larg extent to people of all ages. The neuroscience shows this is true.

That is why I think it is right that both fun and learning are part of the stated ethos of ASR. It's just too bad this isn't being widely accepted yet

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think of ASR as an accredited college of further education. There are members who have been, or are, full time professors in electronics, acoustics, mathematics, physics etc. There are members who have designed and built astonishing technology. There are members who have spent years in industry, or "the trade". There are new members introducing new experiences, or learning, or just stuck and asking questions. There are members who can repair and restore legacy gear (this is a great skill). There are members who just love tinkering, measuring, learning etc.

It's a lovely community. But it feels a bit unfair to measure it with an educational yardstick. There are members who have taught, and there are members who are happy to coach others. But it doesn't feel to me like education is the only goal of the community.

 

[DMill]

That isn't to discount getting oriented and taking in new information with an open mind. Coming into ASR with a closed mind would be the antithesis to learning.

The internet is both wonderful and horrible. I’ve seen too many posts that are simply trolls. And a few legitimate posts that get shut down a bit harshly because of that. Some technical experts here can come off cranky, and in fairness, to them the questions they are responding to seem so simple. I’m not an expert in electronics… very far from it. But it must be tiresome to explain why subjective opinions that lack any shred of evidence are/or are not valid. As a person of learning when someone says 2+2=3, then I would say prove it.

 

[Mort]

Very true ... but as a place of fun and learning, learning on how to engage with people might be helpful. I'd really like to see ASR be a different place than the other forums out there.

Maybe this would have been a better approach from the start, instead of expressing disappointment in the community. The framing is more constructive, I think.

 

[youngho]

If we're supposed to be a community of learning and fun, then we need to start collectively understanding that Learning is about exploring, failing, trying again, re-focusing and re-imagining after we learn something new. The only way to truly explore and learn in a text-based forum is to write. A lot. That means lots of mistakes, lots of bad ideas, and much room to grow in understanding.

Hi, I don’t have a technical background in audio or education, but I believe that I may have contributed positively to the learning experience at ASR with some of my posts like on concert hall acoustics, bass and subwoofers, and psychoacoustics. I’d like to suggest that the best way to explore (edit: autocorrect had put "expose") and learn in a text-based forum is to search, like previous posts by users whose responses you find illuminating and also broader internet searches to find additional material not available on ASR, to ask well-structured questions that are more likely to elicit meaningful responses, and to remember and collate useful information and links to give depth and context for future posts. That, in essence, reflects my approach to the posts I mentioned above, which were helpful for my own learning, and I believe, for others, as well. A side note that I’d like to mention is that I sometimes contact people directly rather than through forums.

It's almost a prerequisite to have some solid technical knowledge to stay competitive these days. But thanks to the pompous attitudes I keep coming across around here (it's not the only forum with pompous jerks ... it's the internet after all), I can't help but generally feel like an idiot when trying to communicate ideas and understanding, and I don't have time for that. I'm trying to sus out my experiences and learn new things so that I can better equip myself with technical knowledge that can support my future endeavours in the audio world.

So, I don't mind being corrected, especially if I'm wrong. But I do mind being made to feel stupid because I'm interpreting something differently or have a different understanding. I am unpacking years of accumulated knowledge, some of which will be wrong and some of which will be good to keep.

I think that you might consider the possibility that at least part of what you’re writing here may reflect on you more than anything. On the one hand, you say that you can’t help feeling (edit: I had only put fee)l like an idiot, but then you object to being “made” to feel stupid.

But I only know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know. The same goes for everyone else.

That’s not true at all. I learned in medical school that the more you learn, the more realize you don’t know. What you’re describing underlies the Dunning Kruger effect, but in reality, increasing competence leads to the opposite.

Not everyone has a technical brain, and some people with technical inclinations don't have technical training, but creativity and intelligence encompass WAY more than technical understanding alone, and approaching people who don't have technical expertise with some graciousness can go a long, long way in helping people truly learn something new and have fun while doing it.

This seems like the part to trot out the axiom about being part of the problem or part of the solution.

 

[JayGilb]

In my early 20s I came to the realization that the more I learn, the more I understand how little I actually know.
It fed such a hunger in me to consume knowledge that the feeling only grows stronger with each passing year.

 

[Petrushka]

I think, bottom line, the reason some people here are curt, is because this site is dedicated to advancing objectivity, and is not interested in arguing the basis for this.

There are extreme positions—some argue that it is morally wrong to charge more than what is necessary to achieve technical competence — but the majority accept the value of visual aesthetics and craftsmanship.

But the site ethos, its reason for existence, is to fight against non scientific approaches to product reviews.

 

[LevityProject]

The objective part of ASR is great. No issues there, at all.

On being made to feel ... That's a miss labelling. No one can make me feel anything. Perhaps made out to be" is a better description. What I feel is subjective, though no less real than anything else.

In terms of reviews, audio gear is one of the few things I've never been able to trust reviews on, except the ones I find here.

The audio field needs much more in the way of solid technical reviews. It helps the creative process immensely to have reliable information on the core listening gear musicians, audio engineers and producers might use, and the methods we use in the creative process.

"I only know what I know" and "the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know" are related. The issue is staying stuck at not learning anything new.

 

[CapMan]

Coming down hard on people who may not completely understand the technical or scientific aspects of audio, like I have seen many times already here makes it difficult to learn. It's actually what got my back up in the first place as I began exploring the forum.

In my experience over the years, most responses are factual, to the point and constructive. I've certainly seen this cross over into more critical territory when the OP clings to an idea that is demonstrably wrong, or tries to defend the indefensible and won't let go. There is a lot of info on the site including some excellent 101 videos by our host. I'm sure that if there are answers you find too technical and explain this , folks will try to put language into layperson terms.

 

[GXAlan]

@LevityProject
ASR has 58,111 members. When you talk about the feel and culture of ASR, you are taking the same perspective as something like the United States or a U.S. public school district.

There is a shared interest in music and the gear to reproduce music/movies, but beyond that — that’s it.

You’ll have a mix of all personalities and perspectives so you just need to take advantage of blocking members and take the effort of sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

With a budget of $0, you aren’t going to homogenize the membership and depending on the sample of members you encounter in a particular thread, you will walk away with a different perspective.

 

[LevityProject]

@LevityProject
ASR has 58,111 members. When you talk about the feel and culture of ASR, you are taking the same perspective as something like the United States or a U.S. public school district.

There is a shared interest in music and the gear to reproduce music/movies, but beyond that — that’s it.

You’ll have a mix of all personalities and perspectives so you just need to take advantage of blocking members and take the effort of sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

With a budget of $0, you aren’t going to homogenize the membership and depending on the sample of members you encounter in a particular thread, you will walk away with a different perspective.

Good point about the sheer number of people here. I'm learning more and more about the site and it's members, and I am slowly (but wilfully) embracing the jagged edges. you're right, it's not going to be homogenous. And it shouldn't be. But it should be a place where people can explore scientifically analyzing their gear. I've started to do this myself, and it's clunky for sure. I'm also aware that my "voice" so far has been a bit of a weird one. I keep coming into ideas with a level of haughtyness that doesn't exist for me outside the forums.

So, in retrospect and as I've taken time to reflect, I'm actually appreciating this space for what it is. A playground of scientific discovery where I will be shut down if my methods are garbage or my philosophy isn't sharp. That's a good thing.

Edit: I've updated my original post to reflect this change in direction.

 

[BDWoody]

So, in retrospect and as I've taken time to reflect, I'm actually appreciating this space for what it is. A playground of scientific discovery where I will be shut down if my methods are garbage or my philosophy isn't sharp. That's a good thing.

Many will never allow themselves to reflect as you have, so will not be able to take full advantage of what this place has to offer.

Too many are so busy being offended that they just can't process what is actually being communicated.

Kudos to you for making the mental adjustment, and I look forward to your ongoing contributions.

 

[SIY]

I'm actually appreciating this space for what it is. A playground of scientific discovery where I will be shut down if my methods are garbage or my philosophy isn't sharp. That's a good thing.

Well stated. Typically, someone with wrong notions will first be corrected politely and gently. Very often even given links to correct information and offers to help them along their learning journey.

Where things go off the rails is when they ignore that and stubbornly continue to argue from ignorance, and argue with people having a pretty deep knowledge and experience. Invariably, they'll start linking and quoting from marketing materials, ads, and voodoo audio magazines. That's a sure sign that an unplanned exit is a likely outcome.

 

[Berwhale]

I read this today and thought of this thread...

Musician and comedian Tim Minchin on sharing what you know:

"Even if you're not a teacher, be a teacher. Share your ideas. Don't take for granted your education. Rejoice in what you learn and spray it."

Source: 9 Life Lessons

 

[LevityProject]

Many will never allow themselves to reflect as you have, so will not be able to take full advantage of what this place has to offer.

Life is too short to stay stuck, and the nuances of measuring audio and interpreting those measurements is a deep well to explore

 

[LevityProject]

I read this today and thought of this thread...

Musician and comedian Tim Minchin on sharing what you know:

"Even if you're not a teacher, be a teacher. Share your ideas. Don't take for granted your education. Rejoice in what you learn and spray it."

Source: 9 Life Lessons

It's interesting because spreading what you know can be a double edged sword - in the ASR context if what a person knows comes from ad copy and voodoo music
magazines, there's a good chance the knowledge will be tainted.

The key for anyone using the internet to learn I think is to not shy away from talking about what we know. Just be humble enough to accept correction when people who know way more than us take the time to correct and point toward reliable information. And as consumers, people need to be far more aware of the pitfalls of ad and sales copy, as well as being able to decipher where audio companies communicate useful information.

 

[Tinker]

"Even if you're not a teacher, be a teacher. Share your ideas."

Be careful. If your ideas don't fall in line you might be in for a bumpy ride.

@LevityProject "What I feel is subjective, though no less real than anything else."

Just a heads up... This is thin ice on an objective forum. Measurement verification or it didn't happen is the rule. In all fairness, the same rule applies on a subjective forum as well. You want subjective?... go else where has been my friendly reminder. This ain't the place.

 

[SIY]

Measurement verification or it didn't happen is the rule.

Ahem. No. Measurement OR listening- but with basic controls so it's ears only.