Just Trying to Learn

[LevityProject]

Update 10/2/2024: I'm learning more and more about the site and it's members, and I am slowly (but wilfully) embracing the jagged edges. This is a place where people can explore scientifically analyzing their gear. I've started to do this myself, and it's clunky but I'm happy to be trying and experimenting. I'm also aware that my "voice" so far has been a bit of a weird one. I keep coming into ideas with a level of haughtyness that doesn't exist for me outside the forums. I probably fall into the trap of being 10ft tall and bullet proof behind my screen, but in reality, I'm a hopeless softy.

So, in retrospect and as I've taken time to reflect, I'm actually appreciating this space for what it is. A playground of scientific discovery where I will be shut down if my methods are garbage or my philosophy isn't sharp. That's a good thing.

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If we're supposed to be a community of learning and fun, then we need to start collectively understanding that Learning is about exploring, failing, trying again, re-focusing and re-imagining after we learn something new. The only way to truly explore and learn in a text-based forum is to write. A lot. That means lots of mistakes, lots of bad ideas, and much room to grow in understanding.

I am not a technical expert, but I do have a lot of experience and have had to do a lot of my own learning. Through that, I have gotten way more right than I have gotten wrong in practice.

I don't always know what is technically happening on the inside of the gear I'm using, or the technical aspects of audio. Although I have learned how to critically listen to music both in a studio and live, and how to use the tools of the trade of audio production inside-out, and google or seek help on problems when something is going wrong.

I've never had to know deep technical things about hardware - I've had to rely on my ears for survival - and as I do know, that's an increasingly double-edged sword.

It's almost a prerequisite to have some solid technical knowledge to stay competitive these days. But thanks to the pompous attitudes I keep coming across around here (it's not the only forum with pompous jerks ... it's the internet after all), I can't help but generally feel like an idiot when trying to communicate ideas and understanding, and I don't have time for that. I'm trying to sus out my experiences and learn new things so that I can better equip myself with technical knowledge that can support my future endeavours in the audio world.

So, I don't mind being corrected, especially if I'm wrong. But I do mind being made to feel stupid because I'm interpreting something differently or have a different understanding. I am unpacking years of accumulated knowledge, some of which will be wrong and some of which will be good to keep.

But I only know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know. The same goes for everyone else.

Coming down hard on people who may not completely understand the technical or scientific aspects of audio, like I have seen many times already here makes it difficult to learn. It's actually what got my back up in the first place as I began exploring the forum. I've since decided it's not worth the effort. There's a LOT of information out there, and even more information within this forum, and there are ways of thinking beyond the technical that can be very helpful to complement technical understanding.

So a lot of what I am doing is synthesizing my existing understanding with new technical understanding. And that is messy.

Just as there are musicians who can't read music but are incredible musicians nonetheless, there are also successful producers who don't know how their gear works - they just know what it sounds like when they manipulate things, and they know good sound when they hear it.

Not everyone has a technical brain, and some people with technical inclinations don't have technical training, but creativity and intelligence encompass WAY more than technical understanding alone, and approaching people who don't have technical expertise with some graciousness can go a long, long way in helping people truly learn something new and have fun while doing it.

 

[Petrushka]

What are you angry about?

 

[STC]

But thanks to the pompous attitudes I keep coming across around here (it's not the only forum with pompous jerks ... it's the internet after all), I can't help but generally feel like an idiot when trying to communicate ideas and understanding, and I don't have time for that.

I know. I am in the same boat.

 

[restorer-john]

ASR isn't some warm and fuzzy internet community where everyone gets a gold medal participation award and a group-hug no matter what they say. Dumb stuff gets called out.

And learning isn't about writing a lot. It's about reading a lot. No asking for answers, but looking for answers.

This site: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/index.htm

has practically every technical industry magazine ever printed. Most every electronics magazine back to the mid last century. Most HiFi magazines in their entirety.

There is enough technical reading and easily searched, factual information to last you literal centuries of reading. And it's all free. Searchable PDFs.

Hang around or not, choice is yours, but that post above is cringeworthy.

 

[LevityProject]

ASR isn't some warm and fuzzy internet community where everyone gets a gold medal participation award and a group-hug no matter what they say. Dumb stuff gets called out.

This is the exact kind of thing that I'm talking about. So much ego in such a small statement.

It's fine to correct people when they don't have the technicals right. It's important. But I'd advise to be careful what one calls dumb. We're all a few keystrokes away from becoming the thing we rally against.

And learning isn't about writing a lot. It's about reading a lot. No asking for answers, but looking for answers.

In a text-based forum, absolutely learning is about writing ... the best way to learn is play around with information: write about it, kick things around, and experience the truth or falsehood of it. Interaction is what forums are for, and it's in DOING that people truly learn.

This site: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/index.htm

has practically every technical industry magazine ever printed. Most every electronics magazine back to the mid last century. Most HiFi magazines in their entirety.

There is enough technical reading and easily searched, factual information to last you literal centuries of reading. And it's all free. Searchable PDFs.

Hang around or not, choice is yours, but that post above is cringeworthy.

That's interesting. Fun that the web design format hasn't changed from the 90s Netscape era. Kind of nostalgic.

 

[Jim Taylor]

This is the exact kind of thing that I'm talking about. So much ego in such a small statement.

Not everyone has a technical brain, and some people with technical inclinations don't have technical training, but creativity and intelligence encompass WAY more than technical understanding alone,

To gain insight into the legitimacy of your complaints, imagine yourself proposing these ideas to an instructor in first-year physics, biology, EE, chemistry or mathematics on the first day of class. Do you suppose that you'd be back the second day?

If the instructors (who are paid) wouldn't tolerate your attitude, why should we (who give you knowledge for free)?

. The only way to truly explore and learn in a text-based forum is to write. A lot.

Not true. Here are some nuggets of information for you to read.

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Tomorrow Bio - Home

www.tomorrow.bio

Cognitive Shortcuts — Navigating Challenging Dialogue

So I have a question for you: Would you rather go for a leisurely walk on a flat paved path or would you rather bushwhack your way through new and uncharted territory? For me, the answer depends on the day. It depends on how much energy I have, how much time I have, and what I anticipate the rewa

ncdsolution.com

https://www.analog.com/en/resources/analog-dialogue/articles/class-d-audio-amplifiers.html

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of fallacies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Scientific method - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Understanding How the Klippel NFS Works

Questions regarding how the Klippel NFS works are raised in many of Amir's speaker reviews. Thomas has suggested starting a thread on this topics and here I am. I am starting this thread with a brief description of the basic principles behind the NFS. You can find much further details on the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?

In a previous post we had an encounter with jitter in audio. The talk about jitter is hard to miss these days. There are plenty of products on the mar...

www.sereneaudio.com

Each of these seemingly disparate subjects have bearing on our discourse here at ASR. Some are specific (such as the Klippel explanation) and some are involved with communicating questions or answers (such as the sites about fallacies and biases). And the videos that Amir does are (IMO) quite accessible.

Have fun reading and viewing. They are quite interesting.

Jim

 

[LevityProject]

Alright, if all of that is a sort of orientation to ASR, then I guess I'd better get reading/watching ...

 

[Jim Taylor]

If you have questions, just ask. There are always members here who are willing to help you.

Jim

 

[sergeauckland]

If you have questions, just ask. There are always members here who are willing to help you.

Jim

I think this is the essence and the greatest benefit of ASR, certainly compared with most (all?) of the other audio-centric forums.

What gets me isn't ignorance, we're all ignorant about some things, especially those outside of our sphere of expertise. No, what gets me is 'wilful' ignorance. The 'I don't know and I don't want to know', the 'I trust my ears', the 'Science doesn't know everything (and therefore knows nothing)' attitude I see on mostly subjectivist forums.

Fortunately, those sorts of attitudes, when occasionally expressed here, get called out, criticised and/or roundly ridiculed.

Genuine requests for help and/or information very seldom if ever get anything but the help requested.

S.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hi @LevityProject , imagine you have arrived at Plato's academy. You are the newest and youngest person - there are many older than you: some have been there for years. The first think you do is start talking and talking and talking.

You would learn nothing.

Instead, you listen and listen and listen. You will learn much. The first thing you will learn is what you don't yet know.

Places of learning do have peer debates, but to earn the right to take part, students first need to listen, learn and study.

ASR is a great place to learn with some of the most knowledgeable people here happy to help and share their knowledge. But if you are at the start of learning, read much, ask questions.

 

[Mart68]

Alright, if all of that is a sort of orientation to ASR, then I guess I'd better get reading/watching ...

I've had a couple of my incorrect asumptions set straight here, across the years. Not in a nasty way but not sugar coated either. I'm 55 year old male, I don't need a 'safe space.'

The only people who get a rough ride here are those who are arrogant in their ignorance.

 

[JeremyFife]

If we're supposed to be a community of learning and fun, then we need to start collectively understanding that Learning is about exploring, failing, trying again, re-focusing and re-imagining after we learn something new. The only way to truly explore and learn in a text-based forum is to write. A lot. That means lots of mistakes, lots of bad ideas, and much room to grow in understanding.

I am not a technical expert, but I do have a lot of experience and have had to do a lot of my own learning. Through that, I have gotten way more right than I have gotten wrong in practice.

I don't always know what is technically happening on the inside of the gear I'm using, or the technical aspects of audio. Although I have learned how to critically listen to music both in a studio and live, and how to use the tools of the trade of audio production inside-out, and google or seek help on problems when something is going wrong.

I've never had to know deep technical things about hardware - I've had to rely on my ears for survival - and as I do know, that's an increasingly double-edged sword.

It's almost a prerequisite to have some solid technical knowledge to stay competitive these days. But thanks to the pompous attitudes I keep coming across around here (it's not the only forum with pompous jerks ... it's the internet after all), I can't help but generally feel like an idiot when trying to communicate ideas and understanding, and I don't have time for that. I'm trying to sus out my experiences and learn new things so that I can better equip myself with technical knowledge that can support my future endeavours in the audio world.

So, I don't mind being corrected, especially if I'm wrong. But I do mind being made to feel stupid because I'm interpreting something differently or have a different understanding. I am unpacking years of accumulated knowledge, some of which will be wrong and some of which will be good to keep.

But I only know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know. The same goes for everyone else.

Coming down hard on people who may not completely understand the technical or scientific aspects of audio, like I have seen many times already here makes it difficult to learn. It's actually what got my back up in the first place as I began exploring the forum. I've since decided it's not worth the effort. There's a LOT of information out there, and even more information within this forum, and there are ways of thinking beyond the technical that can be very helpful to complement technical understanding.

So a lot of what I am doing is synthesizing my existing understanding with new technical understanding. And that is messy.

Just as there are musicians who can't read music but are incredible musicians nonetheless, there are also successful producers who don't know how their gear works - they just know what it sounds like when they manipulate things, and they know good sound when they hear it.

Not everyone has a technical brain, and some people with technical inclinations don't have technical training, but creativity and intelligence encompass WAY more than technical understanding alone, and approaching people who don't have technical expertise with some graciousness can go a long, long way in helping people truly learn something new and have fun while doing it.

Read a bit, listen a lot then ask a question. If you don't understand the answer then say so - that's fine. If you don't like the answer then go back around the reading/listening loop.
And remember that we're just people. Some members are verified experts in the field, some (like me) are interested, and interested in learning.

 

[LevityProject]

I should probably mention that while I might not be an engineering expert, I am an expert in the field of learning and education. At least, that's what my degrees and field experience say.

Listening does not = learning. If we are talking about learning we are talking about something different than mere passive listening and information retaining/regurgitating. Learning is a far more complex mechanism than what people are saying here.

That isn't to discount getting oriented and taking in new information with an open mind. Coming into ASR with a closed mind would be the antithesis to learning.

If this is to truly be a community of learning, this might a helpful place to start on the technical side of what learning is and is not.

Learning and Memory (Section 4, Chapter 7) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston

learning involves changes in the strength of synaptic connections between neurons.

And Serotonin has a significant impact on synaptic plasticity ... the ability of neurons to change their connections in response to experiences. Serotonin also influences various brain functions like mood, sleep and appetite.

To put it in the words of the largest study on learning that accounts for advancements in neuroscience:

From p.52. especially point 3.

Coming down hard on people is not the right approach to have someone learn something in a meaningful way, because emotions are the gateway to learning.

While this study focused on k-12 education, the principles can apply to a larg extent to people of all ages. The neuroscience shows this is true.

That is why I think it is right that both fun and learning are part of the stated ethos of ASR. It's just too bad this isn't being widely accepted yet

 

[bachatero]

What's the fuss here? I haven't seen much on ASR except "just the facts" so I'm all ears for examples of the nasty behavior you're describing.

 

[LevityProject]

It usually appears deeper into the comment threads. The original posts from the engineering experts are pretty excellent.

 

[Berwhale]

Personally, I find the best way to validate what i've read, and therefore turn it into learning, is to answer other peoples questions. I'll either get corrections or likes for my response, either is good with me.

 

[Timcognito]

Coming down hard on people is not the right approach to have someone learn something in a meaningful way, because emotions are the gateway to learning.

Well been here since 2021 and there are many helpful people, several have posted right in this thread, but there are know it all curmudgeons as well. Also some have short fuses and get baited into arguments over trivial stuff. I was just there myself on an intellectual property discussion something I have a lot of experience with but was tangential to the thread. Another is the true experts that like sharing expertise with other true experts, see ASR as their domain and are put off by newbies asserting the falsies they learned from audio business side. All of the advice above about being a observer and also admitting not knowing or when you are wrong helps others understand where you are coming form is helpful in getting real honest advice. Bottom line a thick skin and tabling inane long tangents really helps relieve frustration.

 

[sergeauckland]

Personally, I find the best way to validate what i've read, and therefore turn it into learning, is to answer other peoples questions. I'll either get corrections or likes for my response, either is good with me.

Indeed. Many years ago a former university lecturer taught me that if I can't explain it simply and succintly, I don't really understand it. It's a principle I've tried to follow.

S

 

[Petrushka]

I should probably mention that while I might not be an engineering expert, I am an expert in the field of learning and education. At least, that's what my degrees and field experience say.

Listening does not = learning. If we are talking about learning we are talking about something different than mere passive listening and information retaining/regurgitating. Learning is a far more complex mechanism than what people are saying here.

That isn't to discount getting oriented and taking in new information with an open mind. Coming into ASR with a closed mind would be the antithesis to learning.

If this is to truly be a community of learning, this might a helpful place to start on the technical side of what learning is and is not.

Learning and Memory (Section 4, Chapter 7) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston

learning involves changes in the strength of synaptic connections between neurons.

And Serotonin has a significant impact on synaptic plasticity ... the ability of neurons to change their connections in response to experiences. Serotonin also influences various brain functions like mood, sleep and appetite.

To put it in the words of the largest study on learning that accounts for advancements in neuroscience:

From p.52. especially point 3.
View attachment 393877

Coming down hard on people is not the right approach to have someone learn something in a meaningful way, because emotions are the gateway to learning.

While this study focused on k-12 education, the principles can apply to a larg extent to people of all ages. The neuroscience shows this is true.

That is why I think it is right that both fun and learning are part of the stated ethos of ASR. It's just too bad this isn't being widely accepted yet

I have a degree in psychology and an M.A. in special education. I agree that discussions on the internet are not ideal for educating. They are not intended to be. When there is disagreement, discussions get adversarial.

The main focus of ASR is to combat snake oil, to reveal products that are worthy of attention due to sound quality and value, and to expose false claims and overpriced products.

 

[voodooless]

From p.52. especially point 3.

Coming down hard on people is not the right approach to have someone learn something in a meaningful way, because emotions are the gateway to learning.

I don’t know, it seems to me that generally, the above points are very much applicable to ASR.

Were they break down is when it seems people are not prepared to learn. That is when the exchanges become much harder. And the more experienced members are quite good at stopping the type of people that are not here to learn, so maybe a few steps are skipped. Sometimes it turns out to be wrong, most of the time though, not…

Besides, we’re not a bunch of educators here. We’re a wide mix of varied people with huge breadth of knowledge, experience and skills. So you can’t expect everyone to act like one.