Just found this video thought to share.

[Wes]

read the essay of the same name in this collection

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Panda's_Thumb_(book)

 

[AdamG]

Maybe we’re just Cylon’s that have no Resurrection Ship! Programmed to believe that we are Human?

 

[JeffS7444]

Maybe that is where the engineers are hiding, in our gut, so we cannot confront them and punch them in the face (typical human behavior).

When I encounter things which seem miraculous and which defy easy explanation, I simply assume that my understanding is inadequate.

 

[PierreV]

From what I know, cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body.
It is the same process by which burn injuries heal.

From that statement, we can estimate the size of your knowledge, about which I will not comment...

 

[Jim Matthews]

What is your definition of "miracle"?

Improbable, at the very least if we were in charge.

 

[Tks]

Miracle is a largely a religious loaded term. With a general definition most would agree has to do with the suspension of the laws of nature during an event of some sort. Embryonic development doesn't fit this descriptor since firstly - natural laws are in full effect, and secondly it's occurring constantly for a couple billion of years, so it's not particularly rare or unexplained.. As miracles by definition usually are with respect to evidence.

Humans have existed for 10's of thousands of years (250k upper estimate if I recall). And are already at the precipice of developments natural evolutionary biology could never hope to achieve. These latest developments occurred since the advent of electronics at an incredibly accelerated rate. Far more rare it would be to observe a natural coalescence of something resembling an electric powered computer/AI than it would be to observe carbon based biological life. Now THAT would be close to a miracle (the skipping of the trend of the simplicity to complexity trajectory of development of things).

Biology has had the leeway of billions of years of trial and error through untold amounts of extinction of failed experiments so to speak. The notion that as something as complex as we are can happen after 5 billion years of this culling process doesn't feel like a "miracle" to me. What would be a miracle if there wasn't so much complexity and inefficiency (evidence of a slow and brute force method of eventually getting somewhere). Or if such a process was resiliant and not so sensitive (try developing as an embryo in the vacuum of space for instance).

 

[mononoaware]

From that statement, we can estimate the size of your knowledge, about which I will not comment...

“The physiology underlying wound healing is highly similar to that involved in cancer progression”

Really you never heard or read this?

 

[PierreV]

“The physiology underlying wound healing is highly similar to that involved in cancer progression”

Really you never heard or read this?

You are misunderstanding and over-extending that sentence, extracted from a 2018 article that was cited 6 times.

From what I know, cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body. It is the same process by which burn injuries heal.

The root cause of cancers, in general, is genetic, in the wide sense of the term.
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/genetics

One interesting recent paper (cited 264 times) is this

Stem cell divisions, somatic mutations, cancer etiology, and cancer prevention
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28336671/

Your statement

“The physiology underlying wound healing is highly similar to that involved in cancer progression” is not remotely equivalent to "cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body".

It just says that there are similarities in the cellular mechanisms (which are very generic) of wound healing and cancer progression. Just as there are many similarities between everything involving xGF (any growth factor, especially when deregulated), inflammation markers, etc... and cancer progression.

In fairness, repeated wounding and chronic wounds (of all kinds) do indeed increase the risk that something will go wrong in terms of mutations/ deregulation because the normal healing process is triggered multiple times... but that still doesn't mean that "the healing process causes cancer".

"cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body" is equivalent to saying "asphyxia is caused by the natural breathing process of the body". Just add "when it goes wrong" at the end of both sentences.

 

[mononoaware]

You are misunderstanding and over-extending that sentence, extracted from a 2018 article that was cited 6 times.



The root cause of cancers, in general, is genetic, in the wide sense of the term.
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/genetics

One interesting recent paper (cited 264 times) is this

Stem cell divisions, somatic mutations, cancer etiology, and cancer prevention
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28336671/

Your statement

“The physiology underlying wound healing is highly similar to that involved in cancer progression” is not remotely equivalent to "cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body".

It just says that there are similarities in the cellular mechanisms (which are very generic) of wound healing and cancer progression. Just as there are many similarities between everything involving xGF (any growth factor, especially when deregulated), inflammation markers, etc... and cancer progression.

In fairness, repeated wounding and chronic wounds (of all kinds) do indeed increase the risk that something will go wrong in terms of mutations/ deregulation because the normal healing process is triggered multiple times... but that still doesn't mean that "the healing process causes cancer".

"cancer is caused by the natural healing process of the body" is equivalent to saying "asphyxia is caused by the natural breathing process of the body". Just add "when it goes wrong" at the end of both sentences.

I appreciate the detailed response.

My understanding when reading about it was that the disease Cancer kills by its quick ability to spread and the uncontrolled growth of malignant tumors throughout the body.
And this ability to quickly spread relied on a process similar to wound tissue healing (I recalled burn tissue specifically for some reason) to make its way around the body freely and without restrictions (like a hall-pass).
And so that was how come cancer was so difficult to treat effectively, and slowing down/preventing the spread of cancer also meant putting a stop to the human body’s healing ability.

I probably need to read up on it again and re-learn a few things. Thanks.

 

[PierreV]

And so that was how come cancer was so difficult to treat effectively, and slowing down/preventing the spread of cancer also meant putting a stop to the human body’s healing ability.

In a nutshell, the hammer treatment for many cancers was/is to interfere with the uncontrolled replication of cancer cells. Unfortunately, that hammer also interferes with normal cell replication. As my oncology teacher used to summarize the issue 35 years ago, the goal is to kill the cancer before you kill the patient. The hammer is still, unfortunately, used in many cases because we don't know any better.

We now have much more targeted treatments for at least some cancers, addressing the specific issue.
For example Imatinib (Gleevec) https://chemocare.com/chemotherapy/drug-info/gleevec.aspx which is the poster child of such therapies.

More about targeted therapies in general
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/types/targeted-therapies

Cancer is a very generic term. Even a cancer such as Gliobastoma that has a single name, is a very heterogenous pathology
that responds, in some cases, to very specific tweaks

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5834086/

 

[Wes]

“The physiology underlying wound healing is highly similar to that involved in cancer progression”

Really you never heard or read this?

I don't know what you are trying to say. As written, the stmt. is either completely wrong or meaningless gibberish.

If you mean that some cancers spread via cell mobility ("migration") enhanced by edge "ruffles" and cohesive contact, then maybe.

and BTW "ruffles have ridges"

 

[mononoaware]

some cancers

My understanding is cancer is a disease. Not just one "tumor". But a fault of uncontrolled growth of certain cells.
As referenced originally "do you think cancer would be good engineering?" I thought it was referenced correctly as a disease.

I could not find the original link to what I read since it was so long ago, so I just copy pasted a sentence from google results which was similar to what I remember, it is pretty vague I admit but still it made sense to me when I read it.

I am not knowledgeable in the medical field and am not medical professional, but I didn't think that was expected.
I just decided to share what I understood as a major cause of the spreading of cancerous cells in the human body, which leads to the death of a person by cancer.

 

[Zog]

Do you think cancer would be good engineering ?

This is a strawman. If you harm yourself by falling that is not good engineering. It is not engineering at all. If you have a cancer that is not engineering. It starts (according to most) by damage to the mitochondria.

But let's pretend it is engineering: If you look at the angiogenesis in organs, think liver for example, or wound healing; you will see a clear structure in the building of vessels. The angiogenesis in cancers is chaotic.

 

[Wes]

My understanding is cancer is a disease. Not just one "tumor". But a fault of uncontrolled growth of certain cells.
As referenced originally "do you think cancer would be good engineering?" I thought it was referenced correctly as a disease.

I could not find the original link to what I read since it was so long ago, so I just copy pasted a sentence from google results which was similar to what I remember, it is pretty vague I admit but still it made sense to me when I read it.

I am not knowledgeable in the medical field and am not medical professional, but I didn't think that was expected.
I just decided to share what I understood as a major cause of the spreading of cancerous cells in the human body, which leads to the death of a person by cancer.

I'm sure there is a wiki on this that would further your understanding of cancer