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JTR Noesis 210HT speaker (review by Erin)

Vladimir Filevski

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Yeah the fact of the matter is Genelec uses a 1" dome tweeter with 250W amplifier in a speaker with 2x12"(1234A) woofers that is designed to hit 125dB SPL in the midrange and 120dB below 100hz. And Genelec's specs are usually very accurate.

Of course I should have known that people would miss the forest for the trees and get bogged down in an unimportant argument about +/- a few dB.
The fact of matter is that you miss the huge forest (huge tweeter waveguide) for the tree (1" tweeter) in the Genelec 1234A. May I remind you of your words? Here:
My understanding is that a good 1" dome tweeter is capable of 120dB SPL, and midranges at least that much. And that's ignoring any increase from a waveguide.

In spite of your fail to provide a single evidence that 1" tweeter without waveguide can reach 120 dB SPL, you stubbornly are going on again:
You can reach the same levels as this speaker with standard drivers,
No, you can't!
Any evidence, please? (For apples to apples comparison - the same 1 kHz crossover frequency and 1" tweeter without waveguide!)
 

fluid

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You are trying to negate more than 80 years of scientific evidence that the 3% is the limit for good sound quality.
No just agreeing with the findings of those who have studied the perception of distortion.

Toole says it well in 4.9 of his 3rd Edition book.

"The result of this is that traditional measures of harmonic or intermodulation distortion are almost meaningless. They do not quantify distortion in a way that can, with any reliability, predict a human response to it while listening to music or movies. They do not correlate because they ignore any characteristics of the human receptor, itself an outrageously non-linear device. The excessive simplicity of the signals also remains a problem. Music and movies offer an infinite variety of input signals and therefore an infinite variety of distorted outputs. The only meaningful target for conventional distortion metrics is “ zero.” Above that, somebody, sometime, listening to something, may be aware of distortion, but we cannot define it in advance".

Earl Geddes has done a lot of research on this topic, his website contains the papers as well as many of his comments throughout diyaudio threads.

"It is precisely this issue that should be discussed. Spectra IS a good first step, but there is no standardized approach. Then as you proceed, you will find that the orders for loudspeakers are in general very low and that the orders for electronics can be very high. This means that it's more likely that the electronics will be the source of audible nonlinear distortion than the loudspeaker. Follow on with the fact that some perception issues are not linear in SPL and you have a major complication that makes the viewing of nonlinear distortion in a loudspeaker a relatively unimportant thing. Most people who have studied this problem have come to this conclusion (Toole for one, as noted above). But we all know that loudspeakers DO have audible problems. So what are they if not nonlinearities? This needs to be sorted out far more than anything else".

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/measurement-of-speaker-distortion.154337/post-1968059
 

Vladimir Filevski

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Are you trying to say that Henry F. Olson (and others) was not studied perception of distortion?! :facepalm:
Newer research (including Tool and Geddes) only deepened our understanding of perception of distortion.
Unfortunately, you misunderstood both Toole and Geddes.
Toole is talking about the inability of a single number metric THD to accurately describe differences in sound quality - e.g. 3% THD consisting mainly of H3 and H5 sound much worse than 4% THD consisting mainly of H2 and H4, in spite of the lower THD percentage. And we are talking here about the music signal as a source of stimulus, not pure sinusoidal signals. Distortion measurements with pure sinusoidal signals is a convenient way to analyze the harmonics structure of the distortion, not to slap all the harmonics in to a single THD number.
Geddes is talking about the utmost importance of high-order harmonics, which are much more detrimental to the perceived sound quality than low-order harmonics - e.g. amplifier with seemingly very low THD number comprised of very high-order harmonics, compared to a loudspeaker with high THD number comprised of low-order harmonics, just as it is in the reality. Link you posted is discussion about that.

Instead of just reading articles about the distortion perception, why don't you just test yourself with the real-world test?
https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/

Thousands took their shot on this, so what are the results?

Klippel Listening Test - Results.png


Surprise, surprise! Substantial number of the people can easily recognize 4.5% THD (-27 dB), and good number of them can hear 2.2% THD (-33 dB). Not surprisingly, the highest number of people easily can hear 8.9% THD (-21 dB).
As you can see, the "magical" lines 3% THD and 10% THD are emerging here, just as I explained earlier:
In the old DIN standard there was 3% distortion limit for something to be called "hi-fi". 3% distortion limit is widely accepted for all max SPL testing.
In modern pro circles 3% THD is still accepted as the line which separates good from bad sound quality and 10% THD is the line for not acceptable sound quality:

Edit: Toole
 
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Vladimir Filevski

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I have never understood the "ignore" function - it is like "ostrich burying the head in the sand" when somebody proved you are wrong. I have never used ignore function, in spite of two or three occasions when I was wrong and other guy was right. OK, let's move on...
It would be very interesting to see measurements of other JTR speakers, because all other models are proper 3-way speakers with BMS coaxial compression driver - which has glorious midrange, believe me.
 

Jon AA

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Just as an example, I think the ff. high-efficiency speaker system may be further improved upon (even if just frequency response-wise) if FIR filters were to be used: 215-DCX

View attachment 201279

View attachment 201280


Yeah, and from here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...5-D2430K-compression-driver-information/page3 from our own pos, the compression driver from the M2 is compared to two other drivers in a different horn, with no EQ, just a high pass:

D2430K vs 2435HPL.jpg


D2430K vs 2450SL-Be.jpg


Does anybody doubt for a minute I would have trouble finding about one million examples of speakers with low sensitivity that have very rough frequency responses? Could I not then use those (many) anecdotes to make the opposite argument? You don't "make a Law" with anecdotes.

Whether buying, simulating or building and testing, Hofmann's Iron Law makes sense to us because those things are all interrelated. And try as we might, it's very hard to get around or even bend much. So we all accept it and don't mind it being called a "law."

There simply is no such relationship of which I am aware between sensitivity and "smoothness of FR." If you have one based upon something other than anecdotal examples, I'd love to hear it. BTW, sensitivity is quite often limited by the base output even with speakers using dome tweeters, so even if one were to accept that all compression drivers were garbage, the "new law" still wouldn't hold up. This can be seen in many product lines where the big tower uses the same tweeter as the small bookshelf, has higher sensitivity and might have a better frequency response as well.

Interestingly, this has turned to a conversation of compression drivers...I like it. :) I'll throw in my opinion. For those who asked, for some applications, yes, they are needed--even for "home use." As some above have pointed out, there are some very real practical limitations of dome tweeters at high levels.

There's also the practical experience many have. As has been discussed here many times in many different threads, beyond paper specs and data to which we have access, it is commonly observed when people experience speakers with big horns and compression drivers that they still "sound good" at SPL's where speakers with dome tweeters not only don't sound good anymore, but may actually be painful. This is so commonly observed (nearly universal?) we can't all be imagining it.

It's even mentioned in Floyd's book several times, where in a nutshell he's saying if you have a big room and/or simply want high SPL much of the time, you want horns with compression drivers. You just do. He chalks it up to lack of power compression and distortion, but doesn't give any specifics beyond that.

Maybe if they got the stop conditions of AES75 right and manufacturers/testers widely adopt it, we'll have a lot of data to help make sense of the realistic output levels of types various speakers in a few years.

Since the JTR's are generally used for home theater, here's another hurdle those thinking dome tweeters can do just fine may not have considered. If one does a "proper" setup, that means putting the speakers behind the acoustically transparent screen. Depending upon which screen you choose and how your installation goes, you may find your acoustically translucent screen knocks your output down by 6, 8, even 10 dB on the top end.

That's OK, that's what EQ is for. Just boost it back up! Fixed! Well, if your speakers are using dome tweeters, you have a decent sized room and like to watch at a decent level and you've eaten away that much headroom...OK, but you may be well advised to have a pile of replacement tweeters on hand.
 

ernestcarl

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You don't "make a Law" with anecdotes.

I never claimed to make laws. It was my observation. I guess you want me to cease and desist from making outrageous claims and observations until further notice in order not to dissuade others from buying this sort of speaker? How on earth did I get to hold that much destructive power? ;) Notice, I am not a speaker designer or manufacturer of transducers nor own the label 'expert' under my own name -- maybe *not having studied this topic with as much gusto as others may have... I certainly hope that people who know exactly what they want or need for their particular arrangement wouldn't skimp the requisite research required before purchase anyway. Unfortunately, for JTR, they do not even bother sharing the most basic on- and off-axis measurement graphs in their website to help.
 
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muad

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I never claimed to make laws. It was my observation. I guess you want me to cease and desist from making outrageous claims and observations until further notice in order not to dissuade others from buying this sort of speaker? How on earth did I get to hold that much destructive power? ;) Notice, I am not a speaker designer or manufacturer of transducers nor own the label 'expert' under my own name -- maybe *not having studied this topic with as much gusto as others may have... I certainly hope that people who know exactly what they want or need for their particular arrangement wouldn't skimp the requisite research required before purchase anyway. Unfortunately, for JTR, they do not even bother sharing the most basic on- and off-axis measurement graphs in their website to help.
Based on Erin's measurements... I wouldn't buy a JTR product under any circumstance. The results speak for themselves, and if they don't release their own measurements, I have to assume all their speakers measure similarly.
 

Chromatischism

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There simply is no such relationship of which I am aware between sensitivity and "smoothness of FR." If you have one based upon something other than anecdotal examples, I'd love to hear it. BTW, sensitivity is quite often limited by the base output even with speakers using dome tweeters, so even if one were to accept that all compression drivers were garbage, the "new law" still wouldn't hold up.
I didn't see anyone claim it was a law. I thought they just meant that some speakers see reduced sensitivity if frequency response adjustments are needed in the physical crossover. Obviously if you have a giant speaker the efficiencies can make up for it.
 

Chromatischism

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Based on Erin's measurements... I wouldn't buy a JTR product under any circumstance. The results speak for themselves, and if they don't release their own measurements, I have to assume all their speakers measure similarly.
What are you referring to? The measurements for their 3-way speakers are good.
 
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