John Atkinson's of Stereophile Talks About Measurements

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Even people who can hear full frequency range may be less or more sensitive to certain frequencies so that their hearing curve shows peaks and dips of few dBs here and there. Audiogram from Wikipedia: "Ideally the audiogram would show a straight line, but in practice everyone is slightly different, and small variations are considered normal." Example:

View attachment 46950

is that supposed to be a profound revelation? I mean yeah...obviously. Has Steve ever had his ears tested? I'd bet my hearing is at least as good as his and he can hear magic!

in the end, I go back to what I've said before...our hearing system has an amazing aptitude for adaptation. We all have slightly different ears, but we can and very much do adapt to the sounds around us. And the range of sound signatures we can adapt to is far wider than a few dbs here and there over a spectrum.

 

[Koeitje]

if you actually get that effect even by switching out speakers, you had some pretty ****** speakers before.

Yes, when I switch from Tangent Evo5's or Edifiers to my main speakers there is a veil being lifted. When I go from my main speakers to speakers with more low end extension (I monitor speakers with a single 6.5" woofer) I also hear more happening in the lower regions.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I would imagine those differences you are hearing would be reflected in measurements no?

 

[xr100]

I've never heard a veil being lifted unless I made huge jumps in speaker quality (especially if you start out at budget speakers).

In fairness (LOL)---the stock phrase is, I think, something like "it is as if a veil had been lifted."

if you actually get that effect even by switching out speakers, you had some pretty ****** speakers before.

The first pair of "real" (?) speakers that I acquired as a teenager were a small 2-way bookshelf pair. I "blew up" the tweeters and it took a while (well, certainly not next day delivery) for the replacement parts to arrive. (Ordered from the manufacturer.)

In the "tweeterless" state, there was only one album that I had then that could just about be bearably (!) listened to, if I cranked the "treble" tone control up, and that was because its spectral balance was tilted (LF light, HF boost.)

When the replacement tweeters finally arrived and were installed, it did sound like curtains had been lifted. ;-)

OK, jokes at the expense of hi-fi reviewers and stories aside, the term should be consigned to the dustbin. For one thing, what is a "veil"? Virtually acoustically transparent "speaker grille" fabric material is a "veil," isn't it? It's too imprecise a descriptor to have any real meaning.

 

[audiophile]

is that supposed to be a profound revelation? I mean yeah...obviously.

Of course, not, just a confirmation that an absolute "neutrality" does not exist / cannot be achieved. It varies from one person to another due to different "EQ settings" inside peoples' ears.

 

[xr100]

Of course, not, just a confirmation that an absolute "neutrality" does not exist / cannot be achieved. It varies from one person to another due to different "EQ settings" inside peoples' ears.

What happens in the brain? "Ear-brain system..." (and not a "one way" connection either, as is now known.)

(And where is this "neutral" source material? Tuning forks? Sine wave generator?)

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Of course, not, just a confirmation that an absolute "neutrality" does not exist / cannot be achieved. It varies from one person to another due to different "EQ settings" inside peoples' ears.

yes, which of course is also true of subjectivists. Therefore, I feel it's wise to have an objective basis for evaluation, and also to do things to make sure we aren't being mislead by our fallible, fool-able hearing.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

What happens in the brain? "Ear-brain system..." (and not a "one way" connection either, as is now known.)

(And where is this "neutral" source material? Tuning forks? Sine wave generator?)

a tuning fork is a good example. When musicians play together, they don't all tune up based on what their individual ears/hearing tells them is "in tune."

 

[xr100]

a tuning fork is a good example. When musicians play together, they don't all tune up based on what their individual ears/hearing tells them is "in tune."

Perhaps not, but that isn't what I meant.

Taken from the Hyperphysics site, so not a reference source. But it's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

i'm not sure what your point is.

 

[xr100]

i'm not sure what your point is.

It was where is this "neutral source"?

 

[audiophile]

Perhaps not, but that isn't what I meant.

View attachment 46953

Taken from the Hyperphysics site, so not a reference source. But it's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.

Can this be considered an example of "measures bad, sounds good"?

 

[xr100]

Can this be considered an example of "measures bad, sounds good"?

I don't know. The following video is a recording of one (a Stradivarius.) It's not a good quality recording, I know, but it's so screechy and peaky sounding that it sounds terrible, and I can't see how a better quality recording (without further processing, of course) could somehow "rescue" it. (And this is supposed to be one of the world's top violinists. The story was that he was playing in the DC Metro and no-one stopped to listen. I would have run out of the station!)

 

[audiophile]

it's so screechy and peaky sounding that it sounds terrible

Taking into account poor quality of the recording I don't really find the violin sounding too terrible, but my hearing in high frequencies is not very sensitive, so we probably hear it very differently

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

It was where is this "neutral source"?

k, let me see f I can better explain this.

We start with a recording. It is an actual, hard-coded thing. It is what it is. We feed that recording from our source - for me it's a laptop - into our sound system. That is our "neutral" source. I want that to reach my ears with as little change/distortion/alteration as possible.

Now, it's entirely true that our ears are all different to varying degrees. BUT, our ears are also adaptable. I know this because my own ears adapt to (and can enjoy) a wide range of different sound signatures. I have several different set of headphones. I have several different sets of speakers including a bluetooth speaker. I can enjoy them all in their un altered state. And when I listen to one for a while, changing to another can be quite startling.

However, what I have found over the past few weeks is that if I make an effort to neutralize these devices - by that I mean getting them to put out a sound signature that is un coloured by the speaker or headphone itself - I'm finding that I actually get a BETTER quality of sound. I hear the source recording in a better, more precise way. The flat or neutral signature may initially seem a little less exciting or impactful, but in a very short time my ears adapt (as they are very capable of doing) and the neutral signature is found to be more clear, revealing, detailed...all that good stuff. And that's noted by switching back and forth between EQ on and off. It doesn't take long for my ears to start hearing the coloration as "bad."

The end point is that our ears are different, but adaptive and I am realizing that by allowing them to adapt to an un-coloured transmission of the source recording rather than a coloured transmission I am getting better sound quality.

 

[xr100]

Taking into account poor quality of the recording I don't really find the violin sounding too terrible, but my hearing in high frequencies is not very sensitive, so we probably hear it very differently

Well, the "bad" sound that I'm hearing is not the recording, it's the instrument. Granted, "recording technique" can exacerbate or attenuate the "bad" sounds generated by instruments.

But, I hope, it's food for thought.

 

[HammerSandwich]

...absolute "neutrality" does not exist / cannot be achieved. It varies from one person to another due to different "EQ settings" inside peoples' ears.

Neutrality & transparency are about recording & playback, not about the listeners.

Any "EQ settings" in a person's hearing affect live performances the same as playback. If you have damage that reduces treble sensitivity, EQing it up on playback does NOT bring you closer to the original performance.

Why do I never see videophiles suggest miscalibrating colors to help colorblind men compensate for their natural flaws?

 

[xr100]

Why do I never see videophiles suggest miscalibrating colors to help colorblind men compensate for their natural flaws?

Quick Google search yields...

Color Management for the Color Blind

Audio-wise, today's hearing aids use DSP, e.g. multi-band compression. There are lots of patents relating to the methods used; here's one (applied for in 1972!):

Apparatus and prosthetic device for providing electronic correction of auditory deficiencies for aurally handicapped persons

Lest it be thought that hearing aids have nothing to do with high quality audio, this kind of processing is not fundamentally different to the behaviour of musical instruments and processing used in production. And arrangement, too, where having the "cacophony" of an entire orchestra playing in unison is generally not desirable; achieving "fullness" with a clear amount of articulation is where the skill of a top class arranger lies.

Maximise clarity and separation, eliminate unwanted masking, remove "mud." Critical bands etc...

 

[HammerSandwich]

Ah Border Patrol

Boy, this is an excellent example. Subjective reviewers like it with their eyes open, while Stereophile's measurements indicate that it's broken by design. And JA concludes:

The BorderPatrol Digital to Analogue Converter SE's measured performance is dominated by its use of the underperforming TDA1543 DAC chip. Google indicates that the current price of this chip is between $4 and $6, depending on the quantity purchased; I would have expected a D/A processor costing $1850 to have used a better resistor-ladder chip.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Quick Google search yields...

Color Management for the Color Blind

Audio-wise, today's hearing aids use DSP, e.g. multi-band compression. There are lots of patents relating to the methods used; here's one (applied for in 1972!):

Apparatus and prosthetic device for providing electronic correction of auditory deficiencies for aurally handicapped persons

Lest it be thought that hearing aids have nothing to do with high quality audio, this kind of processing is not fundamentally different to the behaviour of musical instruments and processing used in production. And arrangement, too, where having the "cacophony" of an entire orchestra playing in unison is generally not desirable; achieving "fullness" with a clear amount of articulation is where the skill of a top class arranger lies.

Maximise clarity and separation, eliminate unwanted masking, remove "mud." Critical bands etc...

Well, of course there's a "normal" range of circumstance and then there's needing hearing aids right? I mean if someone has hearing issues such that they can't hear much above 6khz well, they might need to boost the treble a bit. But "most" of us operate in a sphere where we are ok from say 50hz-14 or 15khz with minor little bumps and dips. Anyone within that range is going to be able to hear and adapt in essentially normal ways in spite of those slight variations.