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John Atkinson's of Stereophile Talks About Measurements

Mtbf

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You have to realize musicians don't know how they sound to you. They are up close and in touch with the instrument. They've no idea, and no reference for what it sounds like to a listener 15 feet away. They only hear it that way when they listen to other musicians. One of the most obvious is violin players. Do you think they are the authority on what a violin should sound like? They hear it under their chin and one ear very close to string and bow.
Of course they do know how they sound to you, they also listen to fellow musicians most of their lifetime. I do get your point, but one doesn’t rule out the other.
 

Willem

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No audio system will ever be as good as the sound in a concert hall, but that is no reason to increase the difference unnecessarily. I have always preferred a neutral and transparent representation, and that is what I have increasingly managed to have. My first step in the seventies was a good one: Quad ESL57 speakers with Quad amplification. The biggest improvement after that was the arrival of the CD. With that, and a by now completely transparent chain of digital sources and electronics (including quite powerful and clean amplification) all that remains are the speakers and their interaction with the room. With modern Quad stats supported by a sub I think I have collected about the best hardware of what is practically possible in a domestic environment. Apart from adding a second sub my current effort goes into measurement and equalization to achieve the best in-room response, and the benefits are measurable and audible (there is no contradiction between the two). Getting as close as possible to the original sound with a neutral and transparent system is truly enjoyable: you are listening to the music rather than an audio system. I prefer my music in broad daylight rather than candle light.
And these days the good news is that most of this does not even have to be particularly expensive. Really good speakers still are, but precisely budget speakers have also shown tremendous technical improvements. We live in a golden age, so it is weird to see so much expensive snake oil gear.
 

Matias

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I loved the comment of liking something that’s wrong. I fear that I fall in that camp with my love of my primaluna tube amp and vinyl setup. I’ve been following these forums for a long time but I’m hesitant to take the plunge into the accuracy world. I love what I have and although it may be wrong, I still love it.. what if I get it right, but I still prefer what’s wrong?
Your case so reminds me of this song below.
"If it's real
And if it's true
And if our love is wrong
Then I don't ever wanna be right
I don't ever wanna be right"
:D
 

audiophile

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No, because you can easily buy something that is not terrible for the money.
How about Dayton B-652 speakers and Lepai amp Steve once recommended, which he said does not sound terrible at all? This combination costs $50 bucks for new gear. If I was a young kid and that was all money I had that would make a great first little system. Can you “easily” do any better within that budget? I doubt it.
 
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Koeitje

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How about Dayton B-652 speakers and Lepai amp Steve once recommended, which he said does not sound terrible at all? This combination costs $50 bucks for new gear. If I was a young kid and that was all money I had that would make a great first little system. Can you “easily” do any better within that budget? I doubt it.
More like $75, anyway I bought a Denon PMA-510AE and Tangent Evo 5's for 90 euro's, and I'm pretty sure that runs circles around that pile of distortion that you call an amplifier. I even got a phono stage for that budget turntable. And don't forget the tone controls to help deal with the average speakers. If you don't have a budget you don't buy new, ever.

Here is the review for that amp: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-lp-2020a-stereo-audio-amplifier-reivew.9806/
 

PierreV

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You have to realize musicians don't know how they sound to you. They are up close and in touch with the instrument. They've no idea, and no reference for what it sounds like to a listener 15 feet away. They only hear it that way when they listen to other musicians. One of the most obvious is violin players. Do you think they are the authority on what a violin should sound like? They hear it under their chin and one ear very close to string and bow.

In my experience, most pro musicians (at least in the classical world) are also music teachers of some kind, either in well-established institutions or as private teachers (very few of them are successful enough not to care about added revenue, think ATP level pro tennis players). I'd say they do mostly know how things should sound like to an audience but they do focus much more on the technical side of things. They go to concerts quite often, but their primary goal is not necessarily to listen to music. They want to socialize, gossip, nail a new contract, find a new boyfriend or girlfriend ;) etc... None of the ones I met were audiophiles in the way we understand the term and if they accepted to listen to music after-hours, it had to be what they did not play. (ie: pianist never wanted to listen to solo piano, singer never wanted to listen to voices because it automatically put her in "work mode" etc...). If they did anyway, they would almost always focus on the playing/singing technique to criticize or admire or just listen to friends because they were friends. When listening to their own recordings, they would focus on the recording/mastering itself, spotting differences between sessions. But I guess that, like in any other professions, there's a large variation in attitude.

As far as "right or wrong" is concerned, I don't think it will be solved soon. I have different sounding systems, which implies that some of them are very "wrong" (but does not automatically imply that one of them is "right") and I enjoy all of them at different times and moods.

I sure hope no one endlessly eats the same favorite and perfectly healthy meal... :)
 

PierreV

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More like $75, anyway I bought a Denon PMA-510AE and Tangent Evo 5's for 90 euro's, and I'm pretty sure that runs circles around that pile of distortion that you call an amplifier. I even got a phono stage for that budget turntable. And don't forget the tone controls to help deal with the average speakers.

Here is the review for that amp: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-lp-2020a-stereo-audio-amplifier-reivew.9806/

Yeah, you made the right choice because it was yours. But is the aggressive, adversarial tone really necessary?
 

Koeitje

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Yeah, you made the right choice because it was yours. But is the aggressive, adversarial tone really necessary?
If it stops people with a limited budget wasting money on gear that can't be a basis for a system: yes.

On Amazon people are complaining his recommended Lepai doesn't really have enough power to drive the Daytons well. Good start for a system I guess.
 
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Willem

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With budget gear I think there is a sweet spot below which good audio is hard to achieve. For me in the European market that begins with a Yamaha AS501 that costs about 350 euro, has multiple inputs including digital ones, and delivers almost 100 watt rms per channel at 8 Ohm. That is good enough for anything other than very inefficient speakers in large rooms. At the lower end of what makes sense with this amplifier, a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 220s would work pretty well in small to medium sized rooms. In the Netherlands they are now selling for 180 euro a set (and the smaller Diamond 210s for an even lower 120 euro). Add a Chromecast Audio (by now you will have to search a bit) and you have a really enjoyable system. I am afraid anything cheaper than about this is not really worth spending money on. Spend more on speakers, and you will get rather better sound, of course.
 
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pozz

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Of course they do know how they sound to you, they also listen to fellow musicians most of their lifetime. I do get your point, but one doesn’t rule out the other.
Concert piano and organ players have to adjust their technique based on hall size and reverberance. They have a good sense of what's needed for articulate passages to reach the audience.

That's very different from assessments of playback fidelity over loudspeakers.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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can someone point me to some of this poor equipment that has great measurements but sounds bad - preferably in a blind test? Because that sounds to me like a whole lot of rationalization from the subjectivist crowd. I'd imagine it's far easier to find stuff that both measures and sounds bad...

Actually, now that I think about it, I've lately had some experience with this. I've recently started using EQ to "tune" my headphones. Mostly just for fun. I'm using pink noise as a guide in an effort to smooth/neutralize their sound. I have one set of headphones that I have really enjoyed ever since I got them. Running pink noise showed them to have a fairly substantial bulge beginning at about 800hz and extending to almost 8khz. After adjusting with EQ to level that bulge off, I spent a time listening and found the quality to be quite good. Then I switched the EQ off...and holy crap the sound without the EQ seemed like harsh, thrashy noise in comparison! We are capable of adapting to a wide range of sound signatures. What I'm finding as I perform this little exercise with EQ on my various gear is that initially a neutral sound signature can seem a little bland...but after a very brief period for your ears to acclimatize it becomes magical. Every element in a recording is afforded its space and nothing takes undue or un-intended precedence over anything else. I am very much becoming a "neutral is king" kind of guy...
 
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audiophile

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can someone point me to some of this poor equipment that has great measurements but sounds bad - preferably in a blind test?
PS Audio's Stellar Phono Stage sounded bad when measured well. That version is not for sale though, they fixed it by adding some distortion :):

Measure well, sound bad. I was recently reminded of this puzzle when Darren Myers was working on the Stellar Phono Stage. He had that beauty measuring like there are no tomorrows, and yet unhappy with the sound. It certainly wasn’t dreadful, but it was closed and restricted when the THD and IM were at their lowest. As he lifted the feedback levels that offered such great measurements, the sound opened up and blossomed. It was truly a thing of beauty to witness.
 

majingotan

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PS Audio's Stellar Phono Stage sounded bad when measured well. That version is not for sale though, they fixed it by adding some distortion :):

Measure well, sound bad. I was recently reminded of this puzzle when Darren Myers was working on the Stellar Phono Stage. He had that beauty measuring like there are no tomorrows, and yet unhappy with the sound. It certainly wasn’t dreadful, but it was closed and restricted when the THD and IM were at their lowest. As he lifted the feedback levels that offered such great measurements, the sound opened up and blossomed. It was truly a thing of beauty to witness.

What do I expect, it’s PS Audio. You guys already saw measurements for SOTA equipments such as dCS Vivaldi One, Chord DAVE, Mola Mola and those SOTA equipments not only measure 0.00009% THD+N or better but subjectivists praise their sound as holy grail to boot. PS Audio doesn’t know how to engineer so I never take their opinions on audio so seriously
 

mhardy6647

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How about Dayton B-652 speakers and Lepai amp Steve once recommended, which he said does not sound terrible at all? This combination costs $50 bucks for new gear. If I was a young kid and that was all money I had that would make a great first little system. Can you “easily” do any better within that budget? I doubt it.
They do not sound terrible... but they don't sound great either. The loudspeakers (I have the "AIR" morphs, with the AMT tweeter) were particularly disappointing to me -- and, I mean, how much can one expect from cheap (I think they were $40 the pair, on sale) loudspeakers?!?
The little Lepai amp isn't actually too bad, within the limitations of its power. It is a perfect bench/test amp for other projects, which is what I use mine for.
 

anmpr1

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John's lab contributions are about the only thing that makes Stereophile worth checking out. Other than pictures of high priced gear. Pretty much everything else is 'drop in the new component and talk about how much better the alarm clocks on the Pink Floyd record sound'-- relative to the price of the component under consideration, of course. So for his Audio Precision work I give him props for that. I did, however, almost throw up when I surfed over to their site, and saw the latest Cecilia Bartoli cover. Thanks for that Cecilia, and Stereophile.
 

oldsysop

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I loved the comment of liking something that’s wrong. I fear that I fall in that camp with my love of my primaluna tube amp and vinyl setup. I’ve been following these forums for a long time but I’m hesitant to take the plunge into the accuracy world. I love what I have and although it may be wrong, I still love it.. what if I get it right, but I still prefer what’s wrong?
I also like valve audio, but I don't like Primaluna. I wouldn't replace it with a Benchmark, but I would go to
MC275, Fisher X1000, Sansui 1000A, knowing that these will surely measure even worse than the Primaluna.

The good thing is that in ASR my opinion is respected, because I clarify that they measure badly.
 

Hipper

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I loved the comment of liking something that’s wrong. I fear that I fall in that camp with my love of my primaluna tube amp and vinyl setup. I’ve been following these forums for a long time but I’m hesitant to take the plunge into the accuracy world. I love what I have and although it may be wrong, I still love it.. what if I get it right, but I still prefer what’s wrong?

My experience is that improvements are there to be had if you want to have them. I don't know everything.

My Hi-Fi listening has progressed not in a smooth line but in quantum leaps. I read about positioning of speakers and chair - once done a big leap upwards in sound quality. I learned about room acoustics - a giant leap upwards.

Whilst I've wasted money through ignorance - cables, power conditioners, foam acoustic treatment, probably more - I never think I can't do better. I can't help it. I'm inquisitive.

That does not mean I don't enjoy what I've got. I do, very much.
 

snapsc

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Two thoughts:

1. I suspect that most audiophiles view themselves as being on a somewhat restricted budget...therefore, their search is usually in the direction of what sounds best to them in their room with their music and fits within that budget...measurements and numbers are nice but "good/pleasing" sound is the goal.

2. Talk to professional musicians. Early in their journey the read the reviews and lusted after the best. If it was a guitar player, it was a specific guitar mated to a specific amp...and after they went to "Guitar Center or the like" and played that guitar and heard it through the amp, there is a good chance they bought neither....because the feel was wrong, or the look was wrong, or the sound was wrong and as a result they bought something else. My point is that professional musicians have their own views as to what plays "right" for them in a way that allows them to generate the sounds that seem "right" to them...in other words, it is personal and it is individual...just like most home audio.

At their current state of development, I see measurements as having two pretty important values...they allow manufacturers, if they so choose, to avoid making a bunch of stuff that they know doesn't sound so good and therefore is less likely to be appealing to their target market. And, measurements may allow buyers to avoid buying equipment that measures similarly to other equipment they know from past experience they probably won't like.

The room is a huge factor in what we hear. Individual preferences are a huge factor in what we end up buying. The next step may well be to figure out how measurements and how they relate to rooms translate into what people actually buy.
 

Snarfie

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Steve Guttenberg is doing a multi-part interview of John Atkinson. The first part is about his youth and while good to listen to, is not that relevant. What is relevant is this second part where he talks about measurements and their usefulness:


And interesting contrast comes is how little Steve knows compared to John.

John Atkinson is talking about a simple test in minute 15:20 so called Dual mono pink noise test to measure if a speaker system has more or less any imaging capabilities. Is it not an idea if you test speakers to take this along your measurements because there is so much talk on ASR regarding Imaging, transparency etc.
Great video.
 
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