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Jerry Harvey (JH) Custom IEM Review

Rate this IEM:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 111 78.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 21 14.8%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 8 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 2 1.4%

  • Total voters
    142
Here's an explanation of the 8kHz spike that is often seen in IEM graphs.



Screenshot 2024-09-12 165459.png
 
Fair points, but I promise that you won't ever be adding 15-20db of anything with these. They're more like 3-5db shy in the top end which is pretty standard. Which custom in-ears do you prefer?

I prefer whoever can actually put out a neutral custom iem. What brand that is, Idk as I don't have the funds to buy a bunch or purchase the analysis rig. I did state before that I think the custom IEM market is a bit of a shit show and is overall delivering subpar products for lots of money, pushing silly stuff like multiple drivers. The only ones I've ever bought were ultimate ears and they kind of sucked and I don't really use them. I grabbed some pairs of the crinacle truth reds and myself and 2 other members form our trio and we all just use those, never had a complaint, they always say things sound great when I ask if they can hear everything and have never made and requests to change the tonality of the sound.
 
Here's an explanation of the 8kHz spike that is often seen in IEM graphs.



View attachment 391969
This is fascinating. When I'm measuring mine, I see these peaks move a lot. Would you say that the characteristics of someone's inner ear are going to nullify or amplify these? Will the person wearing the IEM's experience a spike like that with what they're listening to or is it an anomaly in the measurement?
 
I prefer whoever can actually put out a neutral custom iem. What brand that is, Idk as I don't have the funds to buy a bunch or purchase the analysis rig. I did state before that I think the custom IEM market is a bit of a shit show and is overall delivering subpar products for lots of money, pushing silly stuff like multiple drivers. The only ones I've ever bought were ultimate ears and they kind of sucked and I don't really use them. I grabbed some pairs of the crinacle truth reds and myself and 2 other members form our trio and we all just use those, never had a complaint, they always say things sound great when I ask if they can hear everything and have never made and requests to change the tonality of the sound.
So you're trashing the whole custom IEM market but you have very little actual experience with it? Why then do you think that the professional touring industry uses them? Should we all just switch over to Crinnacle so the artists will have a better experience?
 
This is fascinating. When I'm measuring mine, I see these peaks move a lot. Would you say that the characteristics of someone's inner ear are going to nullify or amplify these? Will the person wearing the IEM's experience a spike like that with what they're listening to or is it an anomaly in the measurement?
I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, a resonant spike will always occur depending on the insertion depth. He "targets" the 8kHz spike across all IEMs to establish a standard measurement technique (read the above link above for a more thorough explanation). I think the take-away is that you need to be wary of IEM graphs above 6kHz. A consistent protocol can give an overview of how IEMs in upper frequencies compare to one another - but not necessarily how they will sound to each listener.
 
So you're trashing the whole custom IEM market but you have very little actual experience with it? Why then do you think that the professional touring industry uses them? Should we all just switch over to Crinnacle so the artists will have a better experience?

One would assume that membership at ASR would come with the knowledge that a large portion of audio products are poorly designed and executed.

I firmly believe if customs could match crinacle iem responses my job would be a lot easier and musicians would indeed have a better experience. Suggesting otherwise is kind of mind boggling to me.

Why are they a standard for performing musicians? Because customs can isolate better and offer better comfort, and toss in a little bit of marketing there as well with those sweet sweet famous musician testimonials. I've seen plenty of people using off the shelf iems for live performance, maybe a lot more common than you think.
 
I'm not sure that people understand how much the seal affects the experience for musicians on stage. That's why I keep mentioning it. There's a huge focus on the EQ curve but that's easy for a mix engineer to deal with. We have EQ on every input and output. But we can't fix a poor seal. If there's a ton of leakage into the artist's ears on stage from the PA, we can't fix that. I have literally been dealing with this problem on tour over the last several weeks. So when I see people saying that $20 earbuds will outperform these then I realize that there are a lot of people who are not understanding the whole context what they're meant for.

As I mentioned earlier, I understand the point you're trying to make.
However, you haven't answered my simple question.

"If a musician were to use AirPods Pro for monitoring at a small venue (as opposed to a big concert with large PA systems), would that be completely unacceptable? The seal is indeed a key advantage of custom IEMs, and that’s a given."
Yes, the seal is a very positive and important aspect. It's a key identity of custom IEMs.

And it seems you are quite skeptical about the cheaper earbuds and IEMs that some people have mentioned for comparison, especially when it comes to the "seal" aspect.
So what if we create a makeshift mold to seal the $20 IEMs that some people have mentioned? Would that allow us to focus on each IEM’s performance more fairly?


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And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I also use CIEMs. I’m currently using products from the Korean brand Hidition.


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I understand your experience and thoughts, and I’m interested in learning more. However, if you want to persuade others using your experience, instead of focusing on the importance of "seal," which no one disagrees with, it would be more effective to discuss why that particular IEM shows such characteristics. This would help everyone understand and respond more positively.

The reason some people bring up FR response is because of this. Your main point in this thread seems to be: "EQ adjustments are possible, and the seal is the most important factor, which is based on my experience." On the other hand, others are asking why EQ is necessary in the first place and saying that they don’t understand the intended response.

If you keep emphasizing the "seal" without addressing this, it may be harder for others to connect with your point of view.
 
As I mentioned earlier, I understand the point you're trying to make.
However, you haven't answered my simple question.

"If a musician were to use AirPods Pro for monitoring at a small venue (as opposed to a big concert with large PA systems), would that be completely unacceptable? The seal is indeed a key advantage of custom IEMs, and that’s a given."
Yes, the seal is a very positive and important aspect. It's a key identity of custom IEMs.
If the seal is there and it's the same isolation then I think it would probably work. I would say that the size of the venue matters less than the volume of the venue since smaller can actually make things louder on the stage.
And it seems you are quite skeptical about the cheaper earbuds and IEMs that some people have mentioned for comparison, especially when it comes to the "seal" aspect.
So what if we create a makeshift mold to seal the $20 IEMs that some people have mentioned? Would that allow us to focus on each IEM’s performance more fairly?
I've seen this done. I've never done it myself but I think it could work just fine and maybe better. Most custom IEM's are hard plastic molds. When you move your jaw the seal changes. There are some companies that do the soft plastic molds and those seal better, which allow people to use them at a lower volume since there is more isolation. The problem with those is that they fall apart really easily during a tour. So we're juggling priorities here. So if you can find a way to get the seal to work and have the IEM in there then it would probably be effective. My only hesitation is that I haven't tried it myself or worked with an artist that did it.
View attachment 391974

View attachment 391975



And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I also use CIEMs. I’m currently using products from the Korean brand Hidition.
I will have to look into them. There are so many new companies out there.
View attachment 391976
View attachment 391977


I understand your experience and thoughts, and I’m interested in learning more. However, if you want to persuade others using your experience, instead of focusing on the importance of "seal," which no one disagrees with, it would be more effective to discuss why that particular IEM shows such characteristics. This would help everyone understand and respond more positively.
I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I can't really defend the Roxanne's much past that other than to say that I've mixed well over 500 shows on them in the last 10 years and they were a big leap in technology. That being said, there are clearly some problems with them and they are definitely not my first choice anymore since we've found much better products.
The reason some people bring up FR response is because of this. Your main point in this thread seems to be: "EQ adjustments are possible, and the seal is the most important factor, which is based on my experience." On the other hand, others are asking why EQ is necessary in the first place and saying that they don’t understand the intended response.
Well said. I don't know the intended frequency response with them. It's clearly not a good starting point. I will say. however, that there is a lot more low end with the seal. But the top end isn't good. Amir also didn't show a phase response on them. That's also not good. I've measured it. I can't defend the frequency response. I've been EQ'ing the sh*t out of them for 10 years. I wouldn't recommend them for anything other than live use and even then there are several newer products that are far superior.
If you keep emphasizing the "seal" without addressing this, it may be harder for others to connect with your point of view.
Appreciate this perspective. I hope I answered these questions sufficiently.
 
One would assume that membership at ASR would come with the knowledge that a large portion of audio products are poorly designed and executed.
That's obvious.
I firmly believe if customs could match crinacle iem responses my job would be a lot easier and musicians would indeed have a better experience. Suggesting otherwise is kind of mind boggling to me.
I never suggested otherwise. I agree with this statement. The frequency response on these is one of the major factors why I don't recommend them anymore since there are many other products that are far superior.
Why are they a standard for performing musicians?
These were the standard for many years. They aren't anymore. We have better products now.
Because customs can isolate better and offer better comfort, and toss in a little bit of marketing there as well with those sweet sweet famous musician testimonials.
Yes, the isolation is key. Again, it's 75-80% of the battle when you're dealing with "A" level musicians who have excellent attention to detail. Because if they are hearing things outside of my control then I can't fix it. If it's sealed then the mix is up to me.
Few of us care about testimonials. Sometimes we're asked to give them and we might even do that when we believe in or enjoy the product.
If Crinnacle ear buds had a custom mold or some way to isolate to the same level then they would probably be great. They would also have to resist the perils of intense sweating. They would also have to not break when they're worn underneath a crazy custom mask or when the artist drops them on the concrete after the show. They would also have to withstand an accidental "turned the belt pack all the way up". They have to be road worthy. This is why customs are so expensive. We can fix the frequency response easily. We shouldn't have to but we can and we do. We can't fix the drivers shutting down from sweat or blood or whatever these lunatics get into them on a nightly basis. Priorities for live use are Durability, seal then frequency response. It's dumb because they should have a better frequency response, but they clearly don't. I'm not trying to defend that.
I've seen plenty of people using off the shelf iems for live performance, maybe a lot more common than you think.
It happens but less and less as you move up to higher levels. This is not a statement about me being at a higher level. I'm not saying that. I'm saying what I have seen out there.
 
I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, a resonant spike will always occur depending on the insertion depth. He "targets" the 8kHz spike across all IEMs to establish a standard measurement technique (read the above link above for a more thorough explanation). I think the take-away is that you need to be wary of IEM graphs above 6kHz. A consistent protocol can give an overview of how IEMs in upper frequencies compare to one another - but not necessarily how they will sound to each listener.
Well said. I don't ever really hear a spike up there. They don't do much over 10Khz and realistically you don't hear them doing much over 8Khz. I can hear stuff up to 13 or 14Khz with the 64 Audio stuff. I take measurements every day. I only do it to see if I have any blown drivers. The measuring can be really sensitive to aiming the in-ears differently. The spikes move. Plus, I'm basically using a 3d printer sealer over an RTA microphone so I'm sure there are some kind of resonances inherent to that. It's a sticky process trying to measure these things and extrapolate how they perform.
 
Appreciate this perspective. I hope I answered these questions sufficiently.
Yes. I greatly appreciate your kind and detailed response, and I fully understood it. Thank you.
I have one question. (Please understand that it's purely out of curiosity, and I hope there's no misunderstanding.)

Do musicians who use IEMs (In-Ear Monitors) for monitoring make EQ adjustments based on feedback such as "the highs seem too high," "the lows seem too low," "the vocals sound strange," "the instruments sound strange," and similar comments (or based on their own perception)?
While some individuals have discussed comparing various devices to a neutral tonal target, my personal experience with headphones, IEMs, and binaural virtualization has led me to conclude that, in a monaural listening state, these devices are never truly neutral—regardless of any calibration to a specific target (even those based on measured responses at particular angles). ---> Please note that my thoughts on this matter may differ. This is not an attempt to deny specific targets or measurements, but rather based on my own practical measurements and my modest reflections on the characteristics of how I listen to headphones and IEMs, as well as the fundamental limitations that arise without DSP processing.

Unless minimal crossfeed is introduced or the ITD (Interaural Time Difference) and ILD (Interaural Level Difference) associated with crosstalk are addressed within HRIR (Head-Related Impulse Response) or BRIR (Binaural Room Impulse Response) frameworks, the tonal characteristics related to binaural time response differences are absent. This absence results in an artificial and markedly different sound experience compared to what we naturally perceive.
Therefore, it seems that on stage, there is a specific objective rather than merely striving for neutrality.
Even when applying EQ—whether to achieve listening comfort or to better monitor certain instruments or frequency ranges—I am curious to understand how this has ultimately manifested as a trend in the final frequency response (FR) based on your experience.

Thank you in advance for your response.
 
As I mentioned earlier, I understand the point you're trying to make.
However, you haven't answered my simple question.

"If a musician were to use AirPods Pro for monitoring at a small venue (as opposed to a big concert with large PA systems), would that be completely unacceptable? The seal is indeed a key advantage of custom IEMs, and that’s a given."
Yes, the seal is a very positive and important aspect. It's a key identity of custom IEMs.

And it seems you are quite skeptical about the cheaper earbuds and IEMs that some people have mentioned for comparison, especially when it comes to the "seal" aspect.
So what if we create a makeshift mold to seal the $20 IEMs that some people have mentioned? Would that allow us to focus on each IEM’s performance more fairly?


View attachment 391974

View attachment 391975



And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I also use CIEMs. I’m currently using products from the Korean brand Hidition.


View attachment 391976
View attachment 391977


I understand your experience and thoughts, and I’m interested in learning more. However, if you want to persuade others using your experience, instead of focusing on the importance of "seal," which no one disagrees with, it would be more effective to discuss why that particular IEM shows such characteristics. This would help everyone understand and respond more positively.

The reason some people bring up FR response is because of this. Your main point in this thread seems to be: "EQ adjustments are possible, and the seal is the most important factor, which is based on my experience." On the other hand, others are asking why EQ is necessary in the first place and saying that they don’t understand the intended response.

If you keep emphasizing the "seal" without addressing this, it may be harder for others to connect with your point of view.
Check this out. This is what you're talking about. I can't remember who it was, but I know a crew guy who was doing this.
 
Yes. I greatly appreciate your kind and detailed response, and I fully understood it. Thank you.
I have one question. (Please understand that it's purely out of curiosity, and I hope there's no misunderstanding.)

Do musicians who use IEMs (In-Ear Monitors) for monitoring make EQ adjustments based on feedback such as "the highs seem too high," "the lows seem too low," "the vocals sound strange," "the instruments sound strange," and similar comments (or based on their own perception)?
Some artists are extremely detailed. Some will only give me dirty looks when they don't like something. I recently had a drummer tell me "Everybody else sounds like they're playing on the album and my drums sounds..........cafeteria." I used EQ, compression and a touch of reverb and he was happy. It's a wild ride. I don't know if we're even hearing the same thing since our in-ears fit differently and their hearing could be completely different. So yeah, you get clues or criticism. Most of them just have a conversation with me and we get to where we need to be.
While some individuals have discussed comparing various devices to a neutral tonal target, my personal experience with headphones, IEMs, and binaural virtualization has led me to conclude that, in a monaural listening state, these devices are never truly neutral—regardless of any calibration to a specific target (even those based on measured responses at particular angles). ---> Please note that my thoughts on this matter may differ. This is not an attempt to deny specific targets or measurements, but rather based on my own practical measurements and my modest reflections on the characteristics of how I listen to headphones and IEMs, as well as the fundamental limitations that arise without DSP processing.
I totally agree. IEM's actually kinda suck but we need them.
Unless minimal crossfeed is introduced or the ITD (Interaural Time Difference) and ILD (Interaural Level Difference) associated with crosstalk are addressed within HRIR (Head-Related Impulse Response) or BRIR (Binaural Room Impulse Response) frameworks, the tonal characteristics related to binaural time response differences are absent. This absence results in an artificial and markedly different sound experience compared to what we naturally perceive.
Hahahaha! Yes! I think my head just exploded. I could not have said it that well. Now, imagine being the person performing with them. You're trying to listen and perform in real time. We have barely touched on the latency from the digital console and plugin world. But as engineers, we try to get over these problems as well as we can. We have some tricks.
Therefore, it seems that on stage, there is a specific objective rather than merely striving for neutrality.
Many specific objectives that are different for each performer. Neutrality is not at all important. Accuracy to the instrument can be important so that they play well, but neutrality is not important since it's different for everyone.
Even when applying EQ—whether to achieve listening comfort or to better monitor certain instruments or frequency ranges—I am curious to understand how this has ultimately manifested as a trend in the final frequency response (FR) based on your experience.
Epic question. I learned a lot from this thread, but the number one lesson is that I think my output EQ (master EQ so to speak) is making these things be much closer to the harmon curve. I'm always getting rid of 200Hz-500Hz and adding 2Khz to 5Khz.
But here's the thing. I'm getting anywhere from 50 to 120 inputs (every drum, guitar, vocal, etc.......just like tracks being mixed on an album). I then send the to each performer on stage. Every performer wants something different so their mix is different. This means that each instrument might need a different EQ for each person (there are consoles that do this and ways to double channels to achieve it). So basically I'm listening to it and applying EQ based on how it sounds to me and the feedback I get from the performers. Again, some of them say "brighten up my vocal". Some say "do you hear that frequency? It's hurting my feelings. You gotta get rid of that." But there are trends. Vocals have to be brighter. When you sing with in-ears you have to hear yourself really bright so you can get pitch. The kick drum needs to have a high frequency point on it so the performers keep their time. Other trends are that output EQ tends to be similar depending on the IEM model. Using 64 Audio 12T's allows me to use the least EQ of any other IEM I've ever used and the artists are always happier with them.
Thank you in advance for your response.
Cheers!
 
I recently had a drummer tell me "Everybody else sounds like they're playing on the album and my drums sounds..........cafeteria."
Catching the abstract intention behind that and correcting it so precisely is amazing. nice.
I don't know if we're even hearing the same thing since our in-ears fit differently and their hearing could be completely different.
. I'm getting anywhere from 50 to 120 inputs (every drum, guitar, vocal, etc.......just like tracks being mixed on an album).
Just thinking about it gives me a headache. I’ve seen how much everything can change depending on individual ear characteristics, differences in hearing, and the listener’s personal experience. Then, there’s the challenge of reconciling the difference between what sounds good for monitoring and how it sounds to the audience.
Trying to balance all of that at the same time must be incredibly difficult. Personally, even outside of this thread, I think it would be very helpful if you created a separate thread about adjusting in real-world situations (not just for monitoring IEMs, but for various aspects) and shared your experiences. It would be an invaluable learning opportunity for many.

Using 64 Audio 12T's allows me to use the least EQ of any other IEM I've ever used and the artists are always happier with them.
Yes, I’ve seen that many Korean musicians also use 64 Audio products. It’s quite an interesting topic.
And while this is unrelated to the original thread, I’ve always been curious about what it’s like for musicians (or singers) to actually hear through in-ears on stage. As a listener, I use custom IEMs purely as a hobby, and due to the perfect seal, I experience a near-anechoic chamber effect with a very low noise floor, allowing me to focus on what I want to hear in complete silence.
But I wonder what it’s like for musicians. I’ve always been curious while watching concert videos, since I’ve never had the chance to experience it myself (as I’m not a musician).
 
Catching the abstract intention behind that and correcting it so precisely is amazing. nice.
I guessed. I got lucky.
Just thinking about it gives me a headache. I’ve seen how much everything can change depending on individual ear characteristics, differences in hearing, and the listener’s personal experience. Then, there’s the challenge of reconciling the difference between what sounds good for monitoring and how it sounds to the audience.
There are similarities but it's really a different thing.
Trying to balance all of that at the same time must be incredibly difficult. Personally, even outside of this thread, I think it would be very helpful if you created a separate thread about adjusting in real-world situations (not just for monitoring IEMs, but for various aspects) and shared your experiences. It would be an invaluable learning opportunity for many.
I love my job and I'm fortunate to do it. I'm happy to share experience if anyone is interested, but most people don't even know my job exists and I'm fine with that. I don't think I would start a thread on it but I will answer any questions. I'm really more on ASR to learn. It has taught me a ton and hopefully made me better at my job. It has certainly changed my mind on a lot of things!

Yes, I’ve seen that many Korean musicians also use 64 Audio products. It’s quite an interesting topic.
And while this is unrelated to the original thread, I’ve always been curious about what it’s like for musicians (or singers) to actually hear through in-ears on stage. As a listener, I use custom IEMs purely as a hobby, and due to the perfect seal, I experience a near-anechoic chamber effect with a very low noise floor, allowing me to focus on what I want to hear in complete silence.
Get an interface like a Focusrite Scarlett. Import a song into garage band. Plug a microphone into the scarlet and get it set up so you can sing along to the song through your in-ears. There you go. It's interesting to say the least....
But I wonder what it’s like for musicians. I’ve always been curious while watching concert videos, since I’ve never had the chance to experience it myself (as I’m not a musician).
 
@amirm The impedance graph seems to be missing. It is hinted at in the text, but the image shows the group delay :)
Sorry about that. Just added it to the review:

index.php
 
I think the take-away is that you need to be wary of IEM graphs above 6kHz. A consistent protocol can give an overview of how IEMs in upper frequencies compare to one another - but not necessarily how they will sound to each listener.
Yep, such is the delight of measuring fixtures and the delta of actual ear geometry compared to the round metal tube (for most fixtures).
Even worse so with CIEMs because these are designed to not fit in perfectly round holes.
 
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Ah, you're not quite there yet I think, I don't think you understand just yet, basically no one can know what frequency response they have with this IEM because you have to have the trim switches of the IEM set to something and you can never know when it's at "neutral" because Amir set them to the middle by eye and it produced mismatched channels with different frequency responses. The only way an owner of this IEM can be sure of their starting point is if they have a measurement rig. So it's not possible to apply an EQ to these IEM's because you don't know your starting point because the trim switches are unreliable & you have to have those set to something (they can't be bypassed).
Oooohhh now it clicked. Thank you. This is indeed a bothersome design (flaw)
 
Sorry about that. Just added it to the review:

index.php
With 130dBV just 0.3V would be enough to reach 120dB SPL and at worst would draw 50mA but will be less in practice as no one will enjoy upper mids > 120dB.
But here's the thing with these IEMs... The output impedance of the source is a major factor of concern. In studio gear 10-30ohm output resistance is not uncommon.
When one has this thing connected to a 10ohm out source this will result in about 5dB less energy in the 3-8kHz range where it is already -10dB.
When one has this thing connected to a 30ohm out source this will result in about 7dB less energy in the 3-8kHz range.

I suspect the 'bass boost' control is just some added resistance to the 'bass' drivers. Could be verified by measuring the DC resistance of the CIEM while adjusting the bass.
If the mids and treble level is actually what is being adjusted then there won't be any change in measured DC resistance.
 
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