JBL studio 4410, speaker resolution

[norman bates]

weird...............

The sound is more than flat frequency response and off axis response ?

lol

 

[Mr. Widget]

What we are talking about here has nothing to do with rooms.

Of course we are talking about the rooms. A loudspeaker, the room, and the location of the speaker and listener within that room all work together to make a system. Speaker designers jump through difficult and often expensive hoops (large anechoic chambers, taking outdoor measurements, using ground plane techniques, and using the Klippel Nearfield Scanner) to avoid the effects of rooms so that they can design their speakers in a neutral setting.

The 4410 is a very competent speaker, but like all others has strengths and weaknesses. The fact that you have a system where they work well for you is wonderful. Did you discover a hidden gem? I wouldn't go that far... I think it is more likely you found a speaker that scratches your itch. Bravo. I owned the 1400 Arrays for several years... nice and polite, image pretty well, but sound a bit murky in the low end. I moved them to a secondary system because I found speakers I liked more and then I moved them along.

FWIW: Dr. Toole and Harman have done the research and proved that accuracy and neutrality is preferred by most people... but it is not universal. Some people prefer Klipsch, some people, prefer Dr. Hardy's Altec sound (it can be pretty seductive), and some people prefer this or that. You like the sound of the 4410.

 

[dcolak]

Of course we are talking about the rooms. A loudspeaker, the room, and the location of the speaker and listener within that room all work together to make a system. Speaker designers jump through difficult and often expensive hoops (large anechoic chambers, taking outdoor measurements, using ground plane techniques, and using the Klippel Nearfield Scanner) to avoid the effects of rooms so that they can design their speakers in a neutral setting.

The 4410 is a very competent speaker, but like all others has strengths and weaknesses. The fact that you have a system where they work well for you is wonderful. Did you discover a hidden gem? I wouldn't go that far... I think it is more likely you found a speaker that scratches your itch. Bravo. I owned the 1400 Arrays for several years... nice and polite, image pretty well, but sound a bit murky in the low end. I moved them to a secondary system because I found speakers I liked more and then I moved them along.

FWIW: Dr. Toole and Harman have done the research and proved that accuracy and neutrality is preferred by most people... but it is not universal. Some people prefer Klipsch, some people, prefer Dr. Hardy's Altec sound (it can be pretty seductive), and some people prefer this or that. You like the sound of the 4410.

All you say make sense but... these speakers image so precise even if you put them in the most wrong position and room possible. It would be so cool if someone else had them or could hear them.

 

[dagfinn]

All you say make sense but... these speakers image so precise even if you put them in the most wrong position and room possible. It would be so cool if someone else had them or could hear them.

Probably quite a few around, they were in production for two decades. Three versions, last manufactured up to 3/3-2006(!).

A lot of JBL data here: https://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/FullFileList.html

https://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/Documenti%20tecnici/Cataloghi/JBL%20-%204412%20-%20Studio%20Monitor%20-%20Leaflet%20(English).pdf

 

[dcolak]

Whoa! That is it!!

 

[Flaesh]

What about this phase characteristic?

https://audioxpress.com/article/zero-phase-in-studio-monitors (So that I wouldn't be sent to read this article))

 

[dagfinn]

What about this phase characteristic?
View attachment 506446

I'm ready to be educated, please go ahead .

 

[Flaesh]

To begin with, see, for example, the article at the link provided.
I (currently?) do not have a well-founded and confident opinion on this matter.

 

[dagfinn]

To begin with, see, for example, the article at the link provided.
I (currently?) do not have a well-founded and confident opinion on this matter.

Ok, I don't necessarily subscribe to everything JBL marketing says - and didn't read it . Phase/polarity/timealignment is complex, and at the end of the day maybe not as important as thought in 1985, perhaps. I heard Wolf of Magico say so, but a lot of effort has gone into the subject...

 

[Flaesh]

JBL marketing

Is JBL Marketing the same as Floyd Toole?)) AE article seems free, what subscription are you talking about?
OP (and we along with him) wants to find the reason for the amazing sound of the 4410. Will this transparency disappear if he, OP, changes the phase using a FIR equalizer? Otherwise, the phase characteristic can be disregarded.

 

[dagfinn]

Is JBL Marketing the same as Floyd Toole?)) AE article seems free, what subscription are you talking about?
OP (and we along with him) wants to find the reason for the amazing sound of the 4410. Will this transparency disappear if he, OP, changes the phase using a FIR equalizer?

No, I don't think Toole worked in markeding for JBL. By "subscribe" to marketing I mean believing everything being said in marketing materials, specially back in 1985 or so. It was hard to know the truth, no ASR existed. Stereophile was there, but Fremer recommended cable lifters ffs...

But I'm interested in opinions, by those who have. Should he change the phase, you think, and why?

Dr. Toole and Harman have done the research and proved that accuracy and neutrality is preferred by most people...

Others did research too, Genelec comes to mind. When JBL made 4410, Genelec made 1022a.

 

[MarkS]

All you say make sense but... these speakers image so precise even if you put them in the most wrong position and room possible. It would be so cool if someone else had them or could hear them.

Thousands of people have owned them and heard them, and yet mysteriously we have no other reports of magical imaging qualities.

 

[dcolak]

Thousands of people have owned them and heard them, and yet mysteriously we have no other reports of magical imaging qualities.

oh no! still, there is something going on here!!!! Impressive!

 

[Matt S]

Why would I want someone to come to my house and measure my speakers?

To answer the question you originally asked?

You just (just!) need a klippel tool to produce a spinorama and also some measurements in your room. Then you have the data to answer your question.

If another set of speakers produced the very same set of measurements, which would never happen or is highly unlikely, you would hear the same sound characteristics you describe.

Otherwise I believe Jiraya369 and Fledermaus, among others, have already answered your question.

Job done. Enjoy them ...

 

[gils]

Hello,

Une enceinte à phase minimale s'écoute facilement, elle se comporte comme un haut parleur à large bande, c'est le principe de l'enceinte monitoring.

A minimum phase speaker is easy to listen to, it behaves like a full-range speaker, this is the principle of the monitoring speaker.

cordialy

 

[Adis]

Why would they not measure flat? The same room, same position, different speakers I get 30% of transparency.

So, what measurement measures transparency? I am not talking about boosting highs or doing EQ. I could try eq-ing for forever and I would never get the transparency and resolution of the 4410's.

If it was only about FR we could eq them all so that they all sound the same, which absolutelly does not work.

So, which measurement is for transparency?

Air is transparent. Water is transparent. Loudspeakers are not.
You sure you're not just trolling us all?

 

[dcolak]

Air is transparent. Water is transparent. Loudspeakers are not.
You sure you're not just trolling us all?

Loudspeakers are not transparent? We don't strive to have transparent speakers that do not color the sound, that do not hide details that are in the recording?

The truth, as JBL said it in their sales promo. I think they were on to somethng with the spatial detail and the phase characteristic, and the compression (what compression?)

 

[Adis]

Loudspeakers are not transparent? We don't strive to have transparent speakers that do not color the sound, that do not hide details that are in the recording?

The truth, as JBL said it in their sales promo. I think they were on to somethng with the spatial detail and the phase characteristic, and the compression (what compression?)

OK, let's say loudspeakers are transparent, what's wrong with that?
Transparent so what?

 

[Flaesh]

For those who don't want to read Audio Express, here's a little discussion about it https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...g-klippel-andrew-jones-and-james-croft.11291/
A talking alarm clock also has a phase close to 0 across most of the range, but that doesn't make it an audiophile device. And in some AES paper, the detection of linearized phase preferences is described. As far as I remember, this was associated with the synchronization of harmonics. Could this be interpreted as transparency?))

ps: Here's the speaker that's not quite finished. There's a crossover somewhere around 3-4 kHz.

But I don't have the time or enthusiasm to compare it to another version. What if @dcolak may heard the difference and highly appreciated it?))

(what compression?)

no any noticeable compression for hi-fi within using volume range is normal)).

 

[Matt S]

Loudspeakers are not transparent? We don't strive to have transparent speakers that do not color the sound, that do not hide details that are in the recording?

The truth, as JBL said it in their sales promo. I think they were on to somethng with the spatial detail and the phase characteristic, and the compression (what compression?)

It would be helpful to have the actual measurements, wouldn't it? We don't know whether your loudspeakers are actually transparent.

For an increasing number of speakers, we have access to spinorama tonality preference scores that seem to be a good standard to work towards. But we do not even have that scoring for your speaker.

I think lots of loudspeakers are designed to have a 'sound' of their own. I don't think speakers for the home have always built with transparency in mind. Studio monitors are perhaps more likely designed to produce a flat response.

Without any hard facts, your speaker sounds great, to YOU, which is bloomin' marvellous and exactly how it should be. Right?